Proliferation of Round Actions?

Jerry W

Jerry W

Jerry Wick
I am considering building a new 6PPC sporter. Currently I have a Viper and have also owned a Panda, both flat bottom actions. They have both worked well, but I'm ready for something new. It seems that the round profile actions are currently at the top of most of the winner's circles.

The flat bottom action seems to make good sense - more bedding area, integrated scope rail, fairly light weight. So what is the reason for the popularity of the round actions?

Easier stock inletting/bedding?

Follow-the-leader mentality?

Something I'm entirely overlooking?

Thanks for any insight,
Jerry
 
Most of the roundness is because it saves wt on a steel action....any of em will shoot if you got a good bbl.....try the new Kelbly short Kodiak....the lightest thing out there or if you got your heart set on steel a Grizzly II.....dont go with the lemmings....Roger
 
Flat bottom actions were pretty much originated by Stolle and their proliferation was largely due to the fact that Kelblys adopted CNC machines and produced a much larger volume than any of other action builders at the time. Stiller actions which include your Viper are arguably clones of Stolles. Hart, Hall, Nesika, Borden, and many others made round actions but never in the numbers that Kelbly's did. In recent years Bat has come along and seems to dominate equipment lists and I am guessing they are producing in similar numbers as Kelblys. Kelbly's and Bat both make excellent actions it makes little difference to a real gunsmith whether an action is flat or round bottom.
 
Dick Grosbier said:
Flat bottom actions were pretty much originated by Stolle and their proliferation was largely due to the fact that Kelblys adopted CNC machines and produced a much larger volume than any of other action builders at the time. Stiller actions which include your Viper are arguably clones of Stolles. Hart, Hall, Nesika, Borden, and many others made round actions but never in the numbers that Kelbly's did. In recent years Bat has come along and seems to dominate equipment lists and I am guessing they are producing in similar numbers as Kelblys. Kelbly's and Bat both make excellent actions it makes little difference to a real gunsmith whether an action is flat or round bottom.
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Excuse me but wasn't the flat bottom action sleeve years before the customs the influence for Ralph Stolle's design?
 
No I think it was the shillen action that was flat .
pretty sure the round actions {made from bar] stock are easier to make. No milling on the bottom and smaller diameter stock to start with.
 
GerryM said:
No I think it was the shillen action that was flat .
pretty sure the round actions {made from bar] stock are easier to make. No milling on the bottom and smaller diameter stock to start with.
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I think you are right on both counts Gerry,
did Shilen's actions predate Ralph Stolle's actions (I have only been into BR since 1982) ? At any rate I am pretty sure there were more Stolle actions around than most of the other brands added together until Bat came along. And now Borden & Stiller are getting big numbers too. The advent of CNC machining which I believe George Kelbly was the first to adopt for manufacturing BR actions has really changed things.

And yes it certainly is simpler to make a round action in many respects.
 
Dick Grosbier said:
Of course they were, but wasn't the Panda the original Flat bottomed Custom action. If not the original it was certainly the most prolific.
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I have another Panda/Stolle article I haven't been able to find but in the December 1976 American Rifleman the cover photo is a Stolle Panda and a Stolle Polar. Something to consider from the rigidity and gluing/bedding surface standpoint there is a chart in this same AR article that stated the Stolle Panda has 16.9 sq/in bedding surface where a Remington 40XBR has only 8.3 sq/in bedding area. Then adding the vertical sides on the Panda for gluing would add another large amount of contact area.
 
Dick Grosbier said:
And yes it certainly is simpler to make a round action in many respects.
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Unfortunately, the prices don't reflect this. All of them seem to be about the same price, give or take about $75. I suppose that with a specialized piece of equipment everyone will charge whatever the market will bear, regardless of production cost.



Thanks for the replies so far. I hadn't considered higher production quantities making one brand more easily(quickly) obtainable than others. As a society we tend to want things NOW, with as little wait as possible. I guess benchrest shooters are no different, although most of our supplies(rifles, receivers, barrels, bullets) do require some patience.
 
BTW, I just talked to my girl at Shilen and she said the DGA was brought out in 1972 (I had to call them about something else). So, if Ralph didn't bring his out till about 1975 I guess the DGA was the first flat bottom custom action. As to quick as Jerry W mentions above, if you need a Shilen Select SS 20 cal barrel it will be "a while".
 
Jerry W said:
Unfortunately, the prices don't reflect this. All of them seem to be about the same price, give or take about $75. I suppose that with a specialized piece of equipment everyone will charge whatever the market will bear, regardless of production cost.
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You are talking tiny quantities here, all the custom BR builders added together probably hardly match production numbers in a whole year that a big cellphone manufacturer pumps out in a day or two. You need massive quantities available for the retail prices to be driven down. Interesting how times change, 100 years ago 25 of something was a big order, now it is not even a good test run.

Interestingly according to the LA times the Apple iPhone sold 4 million first 4 days and even those are not very much discounted. There are probably less than 5000 custom BR actions in existence .

PS: I drew the 5000 custom actions out of the air a little bit based on NBRSA and IBS membership numbers and I could easily be wrong. I do know a good number of custom actions are on high dollar "Hunting" rifles and "Varmint" rifles. And there are a fair number of nuts like myself who have more than the 1.5 custom actions per person I guessed at.
 
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I have a friend who has a 73xx numbered Panda, it has the extended front end like a Teddy. Pinned trigger, no hanger. I have put several barrels on this action.
 
It would interesting to know just how many true custom actions there are out there. I'm thinking a lot more than we realize. I see lots of custom hunting rifles with Nesika, BAT, etc. actions, plus the so-called "point-blank" BR crowd, plus the long-range crowd, equals lots of actions. As shooters, today, we have a selection of the best actions ever made and there are many good ones.

No doubt the flat-bottoms like the Panda have the most bedding area. The aluminum models are surely lighter, also, but in my personal likes-and-dislikes quotient I find them unsightly to look at. That doesn't mean they won't shoot it just means I don't like the looks of them. To pure competitiveness, the looks doesn't matter, but when I caress it and lavish my love on it, the appearance matters.
 
Dick Grosbier said:
OK, did the gov't buy a couple thousand of one action ?
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Actually they did and are still. We build them a special version of our TAC300 called the MK13 WM

We build over 3000 actions per year now. The ATF site doesnt even show the ones that are OEM'ed to other mfrs, as they show them on their records. Most are not benchrest actions though. We probably have built a few thousand true benchrest actions since the start. That does not include any of the predator line of single shots though. Some of them are being used for BR. I would guess that 5000 is a low number for total BR actions ever built though. I guess we would be selling 500 or so BR actions per year if we kept up with building them and marketing them to full capacity of what people ask for. That is about what we hit 4 or 5 years ago.
 
stiller said:
Actually they did and are still. We build them a special version of our TAC300 called the MK13 WM

We build over 3000 actions per year now. The ATF site doesnt even show the ones that are OEM'ed to other mfrs, as they show them on their records. Most are not benchrest actions though. We probably have built a few thousand true benchrest actions since the start. That does not include any of the predator line of single shots though. Some of them are being used for BR. I would guess that 5000 is a low number for total BR actions ever built though. I guess we would be selling 500 or so BR actions per year if we kept up with building them and marketing them to full capacity of what people ask for. That is about what we hit 4 or 5 years ago.
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My apologies,
Shows how wrong I can go when I start making assumptions.

You know what the say about "assume"

Thanks for information Jerry.

Dick

PS: This has turned into a very interesting thread IMO
 
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