PPC Cases, want to know more about them!

Boyd Allen said:
Does anyone know what powder(s) were used for these no tension and fitted neck loads? I would be surprised if 133 worked with no tension. Also, on the fitted, I presume that there was some neck tension but that it was on the low end. How close do loaded rounds have to be to chamber neck diameter so that their necks snap back instead of being deformed and requiring sizing?
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Red Cornelison used BLC with his no tension necks. I saw him many a time place his bullet into the top of the case by hand. One thing about Red, he didn't do anything in a hurry when he was shooting. If I used the neck tension that he had, my bullet would probably come out of the case before it ever wound up in the rifle.
 
HFV said:
I shot 6 American w/fitted neck. Once I started w/my Hall rifle, 1st target was .420"@ 100yds. I put the gun back in the case, got 6 American to the line, on second thru 5th target. This rifle had fitted neck and I had no sizing die at all.
I shot 4 targets in the ones, (starting w/.102") After the agg was over, they forced me to accept the trophy I had just won. @ the next match, shooting unlimited class (10 shot) w/this 10-1/2 lb rifle , I started w /impressive .181" and ended third in the agg. Rifle was stolen before the Fayette match. Now all that being said, Ted Manning shoots all his w/o any neck tension. He just sets the bullet on top of the powder and shoots. He shot a 4 gun match @ Wilmington NC, . He used 4 different barrels, one in each class, same brass. He won the 4 gun.
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And Ted Manning can still beat your butt six ways from Sunday when he takes the notion!

I was shooting beside Ted at Unaka a couple of years ago. We started the match in good running conditions and I shot as fast as I can move and think. When I was loading my 3rd round Ted was taking his bolt out.
 
HFV said:
I shot 6 American w/fitted neck. Once I started w/my Hall rifle, 1st target was .420"@ 100yds. I put the gun back in the case, got 6 American to the line, on second thru 5th target. This rifle had fitted neck and I had no sizing die at all.
I shot 4 targets in the ones, (starting w/.102") After the agg was over, they forced me to accept the trophy I had just won. @ the next match, shooting unlimited class (10 shot) w/this 10-1/2 lb rifle , I started w /impressive .181" and ended third in the agg. Rifle was stolen before the Fayette match. Now all that being said, Ted Manning shoots all his w/o any neck tension. He just sets the bullet on top of the powder and shoots. He shot a 4 gun match @ Wilmington NC, . He used 4 different barrels, one in each class, same brass. He won the 4 gun.
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You can not be guilty of over sizing the brass!
that has one varient removed
Jim
 
Gentlemen,
Just trying to put a time line on this discussion, and get some serious neck methiogidy!

Option 1 Fitted neck, no need to size, so no over sizing, are the dies better now or is this still used. Also next to no neck tension, so no variable!
Option 2 Stepped neck, reduced tension variations, by having most part of the neck fitted if you like? with no tension, but still hold the bullet.
Option 3 .0025"-.003" neck clearance to allows more uniform bullet release, extreme minimal sizing with best custom die, no treatment of neck tension, except by having new brass regulary
Option 4 new cases every match, cull before tension variation appears
Option 5 shoot cases many times to 'dull' out tension variations, you are now laughin, till they split.
Option 6 anyone?

Which came first and in what order?
Where any of these tested in a tunnel?
Who belives in which
Good Shooting!
Jim
 
None of these methods will work better than the others until you get a good barrel. When you get a good barrel they all work the same.
 
Wilbur said:
None of these methods will work better than the others until you get a good barrel. When you get a good barrel they all work the same.
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Damn it Wilbur, why would you kill a perfectly good esoteric discussion about all this time/work wasting stuff with a strong dose of the truth? Don't you know that's what these forums are all about? Man, what are you thinking :eek:

Rick
 
Greyfox said:
Damn it Wilbur, why would you kill a perfectly good esoteric discussion about all this time/work wasting stuff with a strong dose of the truth? Don't you know that's what these forums are all about? Man, what are you thinking :eek:

Rick
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I try so hard to keep from doin' it and just can't help myself. Y'all put me on the ignore list if you need to. If I've got something truly earth shattering, I'll use my "admin" ID to post it. Truth is, I'm gettin' a little tired of that same old crap I post as well.

So, to that extent, I'm gonna say that no neck tension at all is easier to maintain than consistent tension of some degree. But then...seating depth becomes the argument. With no tension, the primer seats the bullet into the lands. If the rifle likes it there all is well. If it doesn't like it there it's not likely a competitive barrel...oops!...there I go again....can't stop myself....put me on the ignore list...
 
Wilbur said:
None of these methods will work better than the others until you get a good barrel. When you get a good barrel they all work the same.
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Thanks Wilbur,
A good barrel it is!
Whats your method to qualify a barrel?
Jim
 
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Thought that was implied

When you've got a good barrel, everything works. When it's not a good barrel, nothing works. This based on having a good rifle to screw it on.

Good group here, good group there does not qualify as good. In fact that's the worst case scenario.

So...some are saying in rebuttal (guaranteed), that their rifle shoots very well thank you with say...heavy neck tension, bullet .020 off the lands and 29.7 grains (exactly) of 133..... but if, for example, they loosen their neck tension a bit the groups open up. I'm saying that's fine to believe but don't drive all the way to Kelbly's expecting to do good at the Super Shoot.

You can fight this concept as long as you choose. I'm just trying to help shorten the struggle. It's not about neck tension, case runout, flash holes, weighing powder, measuring bullets, SKILL, etc...It's about rifles and barrels.
 
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Wilbur said:
When you've got a good barrel, everything works. When it's not a good barrel, nothing works. This based on having a good rifle to screw it on.

etc...It's about rifles and barrels.
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You guys need to know, CBWP (Cook & Bottle Washer Person) was chief
technical adviser to the late Paul Wolf.

Paul Wolf was the originator of the term "huuuummmer barrels"
 
Wilbur said:
When you've got a good barrel, everything works. When it's not a good barrel, nothing works. This based on having a good rifle to screw it on.

Good group here, good group there does not qualify as good. In fact that's the worst case scenario.

So...some are saying in rebuttal (guaranteed), that their rifle shoots very well thank you with say...heavy neck tension, bullet .020 off the lands and 29.7 grains (exactly) of 133..... but if, for example, they loosen their neck tension a bit the groups open up. I'm saying that's fine to believe but don't drive all the way to Kelbly's expecting to do good at the Super Shoot.

You can fight this concept as long as you choose. I'm just trying to help shorten the struggle. It's not about neck tension, case runout, flash holes, weighing powder, measuring bullets, SKILL, etc...It's about rifles and barrels.
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Thank you

Thank you!

Thank you!!!

Now that's krystal klear

al
 
JerrySharrett said:
You guys need to know, CBWP (Cook & Bottle Washer Person) was chief
technical adviser to the late Paul Wolf.

Paul Wolf was the originator of the term "huuuummmer barrels"
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Paul is sittin' in hummer heaven believing "they" screwed him out of a Super Shoot win. He was adding his last group to his running agg and dividing by two. After all the shooting, his 2 gun was way less than the winner. Next Super Shoot I wandered by and asked him how he was shooting and he replied - "Don't matter...they've already picked out who's gonna win."

Paul's "red rifle" would be a supporting example of what I'm trying to convey. He spent many a Saturday trying to coax a placement out of those other rifles he had without much (any) luck. Come Sunday morning, Paul could be found piping lube on the red rifle's bolt and we all knew we were shooting for second place - hoping we had enough ground for the 2 gun. The point here is subtle and might be missed. If Paul found what the red rifle liked, why couldn't he find what the others liked given the years he tried.

Save yourself some time and money. Find somebody with a killer rifle and offer him 3 maybe 4 times what he paid for it. If he accepts your offer, write the check and then try to cover it come Monday. If you can't cover the check, return it to him and say..."I didn't do anything to it but lap that tight spot out".
 
Wilbur,
Thank you!
Some very timely advise.
Is it common for a new barrel to be no good?
So how many barrels would you qualify at one time?
Jim
 
Never had enough money to buy more than one at a time - had to spend some time with them all. Bought a blue rifle from Keith Gantt which improved the odds of getting a good barrel but I can't say it's been a 50/50 proposition and would consider myself lucky to get a winner one out of four. It's my understanding that those odds have improved somewhat since I last bought...can't remember when that was...

Keith gave me a new barrel with the rifle and it seemed the worst ever until I tried some 'fat' bullets (.2445). It really liked those fat boys and I piled up a bunch of simulated wood before it quit. No matter how strongly we believe, there will always be data to the contrary. I've said many times that folks believe in what they were doing when they shot their best and continue that belief in the face of conflicting data. Well, hell, there ain't nothing wrong with that!
 
neck tension how to adjust for it?

Ok,
This has been really great! with lots of info from all sides, thank you.
I would like to learn more about how to work with neck tension, i know it is better to have no variations, but in this case we do.
Just to start, to paint a muddy picture, my powder likes lots of tension, and just for wilbur, he has kindly offered his best match barrel so we know it is a 'hummer'.
Now we load 16 rounds for 2 groups with the desired tension and 2 groups with no tension, what will we likely see on the paper and what sort of group size variation.

Now secondly, we find during a match, that variations in neck tension are starting to appear, how do you deal with that.
I have been told that you can buy neck bushes in .0005" increments, do you notice the variation when seating the bullet? then remove the powder and resize the neck again and reseat?
Good Shooting!
Jim
 
inside neck polishing

I have been able to get my necks turned very nicely and the external part of the case polishd with xxxx steel wool. everything measures up nicely.
With all this talk about neck tension and bullet release consistancy, i bet that you guys polish the inside of your necks during initial bras prep.
What is you preferred method.
Good Shooting!
Jim
 
JRB said:
i bet that you guys polish the inside of your necks during initial bras prep.
What is you preferred method. Good Shooting! Jim
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Jim, I cut the inside of the necks to make 'em perfectly round and get the finish I want.

After that, I purposely don't clean the i.d. of the necks.

Good shootin'. -Al
 
JRB said:
I have been able to get my necks turned very nicely and the external part of the case polishd with xxxx steel wool. everything measures up nicely.
With all this talk about neck tension and bullet release consistancy, i bet that you guys polish the inside of your necks during initial bras prep.
What is you preferred method.
Good Shooting!
Jim
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I wouldn't bet that there wasn't a sub-cult out there that polished the entire inside of the case but I've never seen anybody polishing the inside of the neck. I have seen folks fretting over the visual roughness but that's about it in my experience.

I spent a lot of time polishing case necks (external) back when I was trying to lure some local friends into the game. In fact, I sold a 222 to a fellow and am sure the only reason he bought it was because of those Federal chrome plated cases with contrasting highly polished brass necks and very brightly polished bullets....that were fingerprint free. I went so far as to partially seat the bullet, polish the entire round and then finish seat the bullet. This, so there wouldn't be an unpolished ring on the bullet at the case mouth.

I wish I had that rifle back.
 
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