PPC Cases, want to know more about them!

J

JRB

Guest
Gentlemen,
I have some questions about usable case life.
Now i want to make some general assumptions here, so there are no unknowns.
Firstly the brass is supplied to 'you' or 'me', by the best brass 'prep' man alive, to the finest specs for your barrel. You have the best equipment to care for and reload your brass. The brass will be used for competition.
So the brass is A1 ready to compete.

How many firings are they good for? when do they become sub standard, what fails first?
Are they trimmed at the end of every day? where does the removed brass come from internally?
If you take different loads to the line, how does this effect the cases as a whole?
As the powder is increased to keep the load in 'tune' does the pressure go up and stretch the case more?
Do you carry out any maintainence on your brass?
Thanks again

Jim
 
I can and do fire my cases many times, not just PPC. Once a case is set up I don't expect to trim it for 50 firings. I can and have fired cases until the necks get thin from abrasion and the flash holes are irregularly shaped from flame erosion.

I'm not saying it's wise to do this, I'm saying it can be done.

Many winning shooters make fresh brass for every match.
 
Al pretty much summed it up...

Twenty cases can easily outlast a barrel and opinions indeed vary. I once stated that I couldn't afford to make new cases for every match. Clarence Hammonds' eyes narrowed a bit as he replied, "You can't afford not to". Clarence is my hero but at that window in time I was beatin' him more that he was beatin' me so I continued with my worn cases. I had 20 cases for my rail that lasted so long we held a ceremony before I dumped them in the burn barrel.

Alternatively, there are chambers that go through cases like "salts through a widow woman". It is essential that cases function smoothly. Not so much essential to accuracy but essential to the time it takes to fire your record shots with minimal distraction. Some chambers simply won't support this function long term with a single set of cases.

And then there are cases that won't support anything long term - but that's another can of worms.
 
Hey wait!

I didn't answer your questions at all - well, maybe some. Don't think there is a definitive answer for some/most but I'll try.

1) How many firings are they good for?
Given the assumptions you supplied and quality brass, almost forever.

2) when do they become sub standard, what fails first?
Depends on the powder charge and individual perception of how loose primer pockets can become and remain useable. The necks will eventually split or fail at the neck shoulder junction.

3) Are they trimmed at the end of every day?
They are trimmed when they need trimmed. Given the assumptions and quality cases I would think rarely.

4) where does the removed brass come from internally?
Don't have a clue.

5) If you take different loads to the line, how does this effect the cases as a whole? As the powder is increased to keep the load in 'tune' does the pressure go up and stretch the case more?
The powder charge is the common cause of case death. Happiness is having a barrel that shoots well somewhere short of too much powder.

Do you carry out any maintainence on your brass?
Whatever has to be done to make cases function smoothly in the chamber at hand - other than that, I don't do anything except trim when I absolutely have to. Others, almost all others, do various ritualistic things every firing.
 
IMO case life depends on several factors. One is how hot you load. Another is how close of a match your sizing die is to your chamber, and how careful you are about the amount of shoulder bump that you set your die for. Another is the amount of neck tension that your preferred load requires. This can vary by powder. And lastly, I think that to a slight degree neck clearance gets in there.

I have a die that does not cause much case growth, and if I pay close attention to how I set it, hardly ever have to trim. In the past I have run a little over a thousandth of neck clearance, but lately I am getting close to .003, trying something that has been recommended by some of my "betters". We shall see what that does to brass life, if anything. The latest powders do not seem to require quite the same neck tension as 133 (for me) so perhaps that factor will become less important, and I don't usually find my most consistent accuracy at the very top node, preferring to work one or two down from the top, depending on what the barrel seems to like...so primer pocket life is not an issue.

One advantage to working with a more cases than is absolutely required, is that you can sort for bullet seating feel , and still have enough like cases to be useful.
 
I can and do fire my cases many times, not just PPC. Once a case is set up I don't expect to trim it for 50 firings. I can and have fired cases until the necks get thin from abrasion and the flash holes are irregularly shaped from flame erosion.

I'm not saying it's wise to do this, I'm saying it can be done.

Many winning shooters make fresh brass for every match.

Al,
i have cases that have been fired close to 40 times and some 25. i made these to the best of my ability some time back, with some flaws i bet.
I am making some new brass now, just want to see a difference when its done.
Now i am in the process of getting a custom die made and getting the handle on making quality rounds.
The picture i am getting is, work the brass as little as possible
the only changes in sizing should be 2-3 thou in the neck bush and 1 thou in the shoulder and base, i have got the bolt handle drop test worked out for setting up the die with my redding FLS.
If you can win with out making new brass say every 10 firings, what are they trying to eliminate by throwing it? Carbon build up? case hardening?
Jim
 
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Twenty cases can easily outlast a barrel and opinions indeed vary. I once stated that I couldn't afford to make new cases for every match. Clarence Hammonds' eyes narrowed a bit as he replied, "You can't afford not to". Clarence is my hero but at that window in time I was beatin' him more that he was beatin' me so I continued with my worn cases. I had 20 cases for my rail that lasted so long we held a ceremony before I dumped them in the burn barrel.

Alternatively, there are chambers that go through cases like "salts through a widow woman". It is essential that cases function smoothly. Not so much essential to accuracy but essential to the time it takes to fire your record shots with minimal distraction. Some chambers simply won't support this function long term with a single set of cases.

And then there are cases that won't support anything long term - but that's another can of worms.

Wilbur, thanks for you reply
I completely 'miss' the meaning of your reply, if the cases are cleaned with xxxx wool or polished with a cloth on the outside how do they change? Is it a physical change? can you measure it?
does the rim wear? how does new brass give a different feel?
Please excuse the ignorance
Jim
 
I didn't answer your questions at all - well, maybe some. Don't think there is a definitive answer for some/most but I'll try.

1) How many firings are they good for?
Given the assumptions you supplied and quality brass, almost forever.

2) when do they become sub standard, what fails first?
Depends on the powder charge and individual perception of how loose primer pockets can become and remain useable. The necks will eventually split or fail at the neck shoulder junction.

3) Are they trimmed at the end of every day?
They are trimmed when they need trimmed. Given the assumptions and quality cases I would think rarely.

4) where does the removed brass come from internally?
Don't have a clue.

5) If you take different loads to the line, how does this effect the cases as a whole? As the powder is increased to keep the load in 'tune' does the pressure go up and stretch the case more?
The powder charge is the common cause of case death. Happiness is having a barrel that shoots well somewhere short of too much powder.

Do you carry out any maintainence on your brass?
Whatever has to be done to make cases function smoothly in the chamber at hand - other than that, I don't do anything except trim when I absolutely have to. Others, almost all others, do various ritualistic things every firing.

Thank you, a real 'steak and eggs' reply
So case stretch or the need to trim is essentually caused by pressure, and a over sized case?
Or is it just from having a barrel that needs hot loads to shoot well?
Having to trim, is a case variation in lenght of .002"-.003"? or do you mean approaching your max lenght?

Do you ever anneal case necks? i am thinking not, but would this affect neck tension or feel?
Jim
 
I'm thinking case "growth" is caused by sizing and the growth rate is relative to the extent of sizing and alloy composition. Could be way wrong there. Doesn't matter, when my cases approach too long I trim them and I don't need to know what made 'em grow.

Yes, annealing usually changes the tension/feel. A smaller neck bushing is cheaper than a good annealing setup and a whole bunch less trouble.
 
I had shot a batch of 20 .22 Waldog cases so long that when I was shooting them at a match at Midland, I picked up a loaded round and the primer from one of the rounds stayed on the bench. Figured it was time to make a new batch of brass.
 
Wilbur is right. Case growth is from excess sizing.

Always.

Cases can't "grow from pressure." There's no mechanism for it. Even an undersized tenon won't make cases grow. It'll force cases to split longitudinally at the web/body junction but not to grow.

And BTW JRB, you're correct...... the brass you trim off he end of the necks is being robbed from this same area, the web/body junction, and will cause head separations over time. Head separations are like flat tires, 99.9% of the time, pfffffsttt...... but that one time you'll be happy you put your safety glasses on as you pick at the scabs on your face.

al
 
Al,
That makes more sense now, so when you fire a case, it sticks to the sides of the barrel, at the neck first, then the remainder is pushed out and finally back to meet the bolt face.
So this causes the the case to grow, not the pressure pushing the brass in a forward motion.
With my off the self PPC die set, i have been trimming every 3-5 shots fired, for variations of about .002"- .003", when i get my custom die, this should be greatly reduced.
Also would this stretching and trimming soon show variations in case capacity? or does it just reduce case life, what other effects does it have? over working the brass or does only the neck need to be consistant in hardness?
Good shooting!
Jim
 
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A Texas BR shooter most of you know that I talked to on the phone last night has just completed turning, trimming, etc 4,200 cases. He expects that to last him into to the Fall!!

(He doesn't know there is this new super secret BR chambering coming out at Dublin.)
 
With my off the self PPC die set, i have been trimming every 3-5 shots fired, for variations of about .002"- .003", when i get my custom die, this should be greatly reduced.

yes

Also would this stretching and trimming soon show variations in case capacity?

IMO, no

or does it just reduce case life, ?

IMO, yes.

what other effects does it have

I don't know

over working the brass?

yes

or does only the neck need to be consistant in hardness?

not in my opinion
 
A Texas BR shooter most of you know that I talked to on the phone last night has just completed turning, trimming, etc 4,200 cases. He expects that to last him into to the Fall!!

Jerry, thanks for your reply.
If i read correctly, are you suggesting that new brass is superior, to brass that has been fired, say 10 times?
What do you feel is the detriment to brass that has had some use?
Is neck tension the biggest variable?
Good shooting!
Jim
 
IMO case life depends on several factors. One is how hot you load. Another is how close of a match your sizing die is to your chamber, and how careful you are about the amount of shoulder bump that you set your die for. Another is the amount of neck tension that your preferred load requires. This can vary by powder. And lastly, I think that to a slight degree neck clearance gets in there.

I have a die that does not cause much case growth, and if I pay close attention to how I set it, hardly ever have to trim. In the past I have run a little over a thousandth of neck clearance, but lately I am getting close to .003, trying something that has been recommended by some of my "betters". We shall see what that does to brass life, if anything. The latest powders do not seem to require quite the same neck tension as 133 (for me) so perhaps that factor will become less important, and I don't usually find my most consistent accuracy at the very top node, preferring to work one or two down from the top, depending on what the barrel seems to like...so primer pocket life is not an issue.

One advantage to working with a more cases than is absolutely required, is that you can sort for bullet seating feel , and still have enough like cases to be useful.

Boyd, thank you for your reply.
i am now understanding the benifits of a custom die, i have many items that i thought where a great idea when i bought them!
I am amazed that with all things being equal, you can reduce case growth, i assumed it was just part of reloading cases!
What do you consider is your main focus with cases? in regards to maintaining top accuracy.
Good Shooting!
Jim
 
Neck thickness? which camp are you in?

I have seen in the short time i have been interested in the sport of shooting BR, two neck diameters be commonly mentioned. The .262" and .269" neck.
Now i have only had two barrels both with a .270" neck, so i am 'far' from having the ways and means of knowing why? i have that diameter?
I am starting to wonder about the Pros and Cons for each? accuracy wise?
Does the .262" neck give you better feel when seating bullets?
Does the .269" neck have more longivity?
Was there a trend away from the .262" neck, when Lapua or other brass became available? and a .269" neck was achievable?
Has there been a 'reverse' in trend in resent times?
Good shooting!
Jim
 
Ceremony

I witnessed one such ceremony. It was @ one of the winter matches , Lakeland Florida. I was unsure if Wilbur was going to shed a tear, as he dumped the 20 cases in the metal drum. I guess I didn't shoot good enough to know if my cases made a lot of difference or not, but I did shoot them alot. I used 19, 6 American cases for two seasons. The necks firnally fell off 7 of them. I believe, w/right shooter and good barrel, the reamaning 12 could be used to win a match or two, even w/all the firings. HFVutlast a barrel and opinions indeed vary. I once stated that I couldn't afford to make new cases for every match. Clarence Hammonds' eyes narrowed a bit as he replied, "You can't afford not to". Clarence is my hero but at that window in time I was beatin' him more that he was beatin' me so I continued with my worn cases. I had 20 cases for my rail that lasted so long we held a ceremony before I dumped them in the burn barrel.

Alternatively, there are chambers that go through cases like "salts through a widow woman". It is essential that cases function smoothly. Not so much essential to accuracy but essential to the time it takes to fire your record shots with minimal distraction. Some chambers simply won't support this function long term with a single set of cases.

And then there are cases that won't support anything long term - but that's another can of worms.[/QUOTE]
 
As I understand it, the .262 neck came about from the combination of the thickness that Sako .220 Russian cases had to be turned to to clean up, and the desired clearance between chambers and loaded rounds. Later, when Lapua cases became available, the .262 neck has continued because reamers and bushings would have had to be replaced for a different size, and the existing size seemed to be working pretty well, which minimized the incentive to make a change.

A few years back, some bright fellow, who was an experimenter by nature and well enough funded to disregard the cost of a reamer and a couple of bushings looked at the situation and decided to try a larger neck diameter, given that the Lapua brass would clean up at a greater thickness. The .269 neck chamber was the result, and by all accounts that I have read, it has shot as well as .262, with the added advantages of being a little easier to turn for, and greater resistance to being dented when used in conjunction with an ejector. I have also read of .261, .263, and 265 chambers, but these seem to have gotten less attention. To my knowledge, none have offered any particular accuracy or case life advantage (or disadvantage).

At the present time, if I were ordering a new reamer, there are a couple of factors that might cause me to change from the .262 neck that my current one has.

One is the previously mentioned ejector. A thicker neck would undoubtedly be more dent resistant in that application.

The other reason would be to be able to go back to the neck thickness that I had before switching to a larger neck to chamber clearance. The clearance that I used to use was around .0015 +-and the current clearance that I use is closer to .003. It has seemed to me that 133 likes about as much neck tension as can be managed with necks turned for more traditional clearances for a .262 neck, and that thinner necks seem to require slightly less force to seat bullets. Adjusting for this difference would only require increasing my chamber neck diameter to .2635 or .264.

On the other hand, we are blessed with a couple of new powders that seem to be producing very good results with slightly less neck tension than 133 likes, so I have taken a wait and see attitude.

As far as the longevity of cases is concerned, I have not had much of an issue that way, I don't remember ever having a neck come off a case, but of course mere case survival is not the only, or most important issue.

One thing that I have been careful about, that may have contributed to my case necks staying attached, is the radius where cutters' leading angles meet that part of the edge that is near to parallel with the turning mandrel. I have seen cutters that were a little too sharp for my taste at the apex of this angle, and have remedied this by a small amount of stoning. Also, a friend has a turner, that does not seem to have any significant leading angle, which causes the leading corner to dig into the shoulder. I would not have this configuration for my use, but he is only taking a light cleanup cut for a close neck chambered BR, so it has not been a big deal.

For competition, it is obvious that if one can shoot smaller aggs with fresh brass, then worrying about getting the last gasp out of cases would seem to be false economy, given all the other costs of shooting matches.....but I think that this is a matter that should require some testing to determine. One issue in this would seem to be how a particular shooter tunes. Not all good shooters take the same approach to bullet seating depth, choose to be at the same node, use the same powder, or have chamber bullet combinations that have the same length of bullet shank in their cases necks. There factors may combine in different ways which result in differences in how important having fresh brass is.....I think.

Of course you can always pick some winning shooter and simply copy what he does, which, after all, may be the simplest approach, particularly if your primary goal is to develop an effective procedure with the least delay.
 
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Another observation on neck thickness, FWIW. In 2003 I bought a bunch of reamers and gages from Ferris Pindell. One of the first things I discovered was the reamers an gages were all 266 neck. I called Ferris and ask him about this and why the 266 neck now and the 262 neck earlier. His reply about the why of the 266 neck was, as Boyd said above, the brass they had at that time required a 262 neck to clean up.

I have shot the 266 neck in all of the 3 designs of Ferris PPC's based on the reamers he was using.
I started using the 266 neck in 2003 and shot it entirely till the 2012 season. True, the thicker neck does give slightly more neck tension than the 262 neck and V133 likes that.

The bad thing I found out and it took me a while to actually determine was that in using a thicker neck, over time, and as the brass work hardens, not all case necks, even from the same box, work harden the same. This, to me, shows that neck tension can not be controlled as well with the thicker necks, IF, the cases are fired over about 10-15 times.

As to the V133 powder and Ferris's cartridges with the 266 necks, I did not find any V133 in his loading room when Jim Carmichel and I inventoried his estate in 2011. This does not mean Ferris did not shoot V133. Jim Pickrell would know much better than us. By the time we did the inventory for his wife Jim Pickrell had already sold of a lot of the perishables for her.
 
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