powder trickle on digital scale

I don't think anyone, anywhere is trying to imply to anyone, anywhere that weighing charges is necessary for short range BR......at 100-200yds charges can (and DO) vary 1/2 grain, and yes, with practice one can (and does) get this down to 1/4 grain.

But no better than that.

1/4 grain is as close as you'll get.

And 1/4 grain variation will LOSE at 1K

Short range guys commonly don't know this but of all the records ever set at 100-200 I don't know of more than two that used weighed charges..... these RECORDS were set with loads that varied by 50fps or more. Velocity just ain't no thang when you can throw a rock to the target. Shucks, I've mixed bullets..... not lots of bullets, but WEIGHTS and BRANDS of bullets in PPC groups just to show off the tuning compensation, showed them go into one hole. A Borden-Built 6PPC is frightfully good at it's task, it will just keep pushing bullets into the same place, even with 50 or 70fps variation.

But at 1000yds that's an automatic 5"-7" of vertical.

And yes, you can tune some of it out, BUT

tuning by shooting 1K is kinda' harder

kinda' WAYY harder :)

LOL

al
 
FB, I don't think you will find N133 and H4198 real high on the list at 1000 yd. loading. I went from short range to long range and the loading practices i used at short range don't work. I use a Harrells measure that is very good with the old 8208 and VV133, but what it will give you with H4895, H4831, H4350, Varget and RL-15 have a lot to be desired.Went to my old beam scale, better digital sale about the same. Next was a tuned beam, better but still big, finally the GD503 and groups got small. The story is if you don't have a really accurate scale you don't know what you are doing. My harrell is set up with 6 clicks between marks and it is not fine enough. Now you get into bullet trimming and pointing sorting by bearing surface. The case prep is very similar but we anneal because what is left over from the match will be used in the next with what you load so they have to be the same.
Bench manners you use at short range is a plus and carry over, but no flags except range flags you have to learn to deal with them rather that what you are use to. Mirage is your speed indicator and the flags are your direction.It's a different world, it 5-10 times further so things kind of have to be a lot finer, tracking is a huge deal that dot has to come back in the box or better, there is no room for error. I don't machine gun them unless the condition will let me, i'm a picker………. jim O'Hara
 
The only similarities in 100 and 1000 yard BR is we both shoot a bullet through a rifle barrel at a paper target.
Oh, and both disciplines have great people participating.
 
U, At long range you don't see many bullet holes, you have to learn to believe in what you do………jim
 
Just because someone can not do a thing, does not mean another fellow cannot master it. I have spent more time playing with powder measures than anyone that I know or have read about, and I can tell you that getting to the point where you can do a superior job with a measure , throwing 133, is quite a project, but then I may just lack aptitude. With the right measure, and scrupulous attention to technique, I can stay inside of +- .1 I might add that no article has described the technique that I use for 133.
 
I believe Boyd.

Notice though that Boyd is careful to say "+-.1" which really means that he feels he can stay "under .20 variation" as opposed to my contention that ".25 is the best you'll get."

I believe Boyd when he says he can and has stayed under .2g variation in a given run....... BUT, I do NOT believe that Boyd will contend that he can do this day to day or even that he could get up, walk away from the measure and come back to stay under that .2gr figure. Staying under .2gr variance is achievable BY BOYD, who has tested and practiced for yrs, IN A GIVEN RUN....... that means ONE STRAIGHT RUN OF THROWS, one session of cranking the hannle, not day to day.

Boyd can correct me if I'm wrong.

Now, would Boyd take a bet that he could throw sets at the range, during a match and keep them under 1/4gr total variance???

I guess Boyd can answer that if he so chooses :)

I can tell you flat that I could not, cannot.

Even with 133

(BTW, I can do better w.322 ;) )

al
 
Al, You hit the nail on the head….. That is why a 400.00 scale that can weigh powder to .02 in 1 second and does not wonder and has magnetic force registration is such good deal…… jim
 
Al,
I believe that I can throw as well as I said, not just one time, like a wallet group. It has taken me some time to understand all of the factors that are involved, and as I said, my methods are mostly self developed, and not the result of something that I read, or somthing that I was told. I like to say that if TV was less boring, that I would never have done this, but it is a challenge that I had all the equipment for, and it was not easy. For short range benchrest, to 200 yards, I think that +-.1 is entirely adequate, and 133 is the limit for throwing for me. Anything coarser gets thrown light and trickled using a tuned balance scale, and if I really want to wring the most out of that, I view the end of the beam with a web cam so that the image is much enlarged, and there is no possibility of parallax error. Most of the time, for more casual loading, I use one of these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U57jnitmLP8
which allows me to leave the scale on my desktop and still view it as if it was at eye level. I take the additional precaution of setting it up so that the edge of the beam is in alignment with the bottom of what I see in the prism, as a head position reference.

The real motivation for starting on this was that I take my whole kit for reloading and cleaning to the range, every time that I go, and I was at the upper limit of what I wanted to take with me. I was right at the point of buying a Chargemaster, when I gave it one more try with a measure, trying something that was entirely off the wall, and it worked so well that I felt that I could proceed without getting one. Since then, I have come up with something that is simpler, and learned a couple of more things that help.

On which powders throw easiest, for me ball follows the rule that finer works better. In the line of the usual 6PPC powders, I find that 322 is easier than 133 and LT and the Canadian 322, which is of identical size and shape in the samples that I have, is very easy, but I did have to make some adjustment in technique from what I was using with 133.

As I have written before, different measures, require variations in technique, as do different powders.....for me.

None of this will make up for a misread of the flags, or any of the other many other things that can mess up a group.

Recently, taking note of the effect that exposure to different levels of humidity can have on 133 in particular, I have started keeping my powder bottle closed most of the time, and am using an insulated sleeve around it when loading at the range.

One time, years ago, I had dumped the contents of a inertial bullet puller into the plexiglass hopper of a Hollywood measure that I was using at the range, on warm and sunny day, and when I fished the bullet out of the powder, I took note that the powder was warmer than I might have expected. Thinking about that, I came to the conclusion that dark powder in a clear somewhat insulated container was a solar head collector, even in the open shade of the firing line cover. A couple of years back, there was a very good study, published in Precision Shooting, that documented the effect of powder dryness on its burning rate. 133 was used, and the difference between bone dry and fully humidified, was over 300 FPS, enough to warrant some adaptation of methods. Over the years there has been some discussion of this, but that was the first time that I had seen a formal test.

Some time ago, I read an article on the internet, about extensive work that a fellow had done to improve the performance of his RCBS measure. One of the things that I took note of was that he found that the typical measure stand was too flimsy for the best results, and made a stand of stout tubing and plate that he screwed to his bench. While I cannot use that method loading at the range, I have found that if I avoid having my measure mounted high up with a Sinclair clamp on stand, that it is more consistent. For benches that are thicker than my Harrell measure can clamp directly to, I carry a four inch long piece of 1" square aluminum bar and a C clamp, and clamp the bar to the bench and the measure to it. If you let a measure vibrate too much as you operate it, it has to vibrate the same every time, and generally it will not. One time I did a test with one of my SAECO measures where I grasped the measure body with my left hand while I operated the measure with my right, and the damping improved its performance. I have not figured out an efficient way to do this all the time, but it did demonstrate the principle. Also, I have two pieces of tape on my powder bottle, finding that if I keep the fill between them that this works better than any baffle that I have tried, and improves performance.


Boyd
 
Well, I surrender.
I can't hold the measure with one hand, operate the handle with one hand, and hold the case, vial, or scale pan with the other.
 
I forget how I jury rigged it for the test, but neither can I, for regular, reasonably convenient use. The reason that I mentioned it was to show the effect that damping vibration has on powder throwing consistency. For now, mounting the measure as solidly as I can is the best that I can do.
 
Boyd, let me be clear..... I also believe you can do this repeatably, ANY GIVEN DAY, but that that run of throws will vary in wt from another day's throws.

In other words, you must reset, recalibrate for each run of throws, even if you've got your barrel right in the middle of a node I doubt you can "set and forget" your powder thrower :)
 
Seems futile to fool around with a powder measure trying to load in +- .1 when you can get a digital scale that will weigh 10 times finer. The story is it's good enough for short range but the big question is can what you do be improved on?…… jim
 
Jim,
It's not a story, and I have nothing against scales, but I spend my time working on the weakest equipment links. (Of course, overall , I am the weakest link.) The best rail gun shooter that I know of, who has broken a number of aggregate records over the last few years, uses a measure. He generally does not use 133, but he does throw his charges. Given that time and resources and time are limited, I prefer to concentrate on things that I can see make a difference, at the distance that I shoot.

Al,
Yes, because of the density changes in powder, if one is looking for a precise weight, one needs to correlate weight to measure setting, but I am mostly concerned with variation of charge weight within a given set of loads that I am shooting at a given target. This is because, strictly speaking, it is not charge weight that controls tune, but the velocity it produces, and since burning rate can vary significantly due to the effect of exposure to humidity, or lack thereof, one can not be sure that I given charge weight that worked for one session, will continue to be the best choice for another. This is one of the reasons that loading between matches has continued to be the predominant method used by short range benchrest competitors.

Years back, your friend and mine, Jim Borden, told me a story about loading batches of ammunition over a few weeks in which the humidity conditions varied widely, to take to a big match, preloaded. His view was that tune is velocity specific, so every time he adjusted his measure till he reached the desired velocity. He also kept track of the charge weights. Looking at the weighs that the measure was adjusted to for all of the sessions, the extreme spread was a grain and a half. At the end, before the match, he shot groups with mixed ammo from all of the different batches. It performed well. My point is that loading at the range, has some significant differences from loading in a shooting house, or any other preloading in a more controlled environment.

If you look at the Youtube videos of Mr. Boyer shooting matches, you will see that in one , perhaps at the beginning of a yardage, he takes several loads to the line, shoots a few shots at the sighter, studies it, selects some ammunition that he puts in his record loading block, changes his mind, and quickly switches to something else. I think that most of us could benefit from this approach, because the speed of the powder is changed by ambient conditions, as it sits in the measure, and the only ways to keep track of this is by looking at a target, or possibly shooting a test over a chronograph, something that short range benchrest has not yet made provision for, although strictly speaking, it has not been prohibited.





Boyd
 
Boyd, If you don't ever try it, how will you ever know if it makes a difference? I'm always searching for something better, I can tell you it is getting tuff to find improvement. I you don't try to improve we would still be loading them through the front…… LOL……. jim
 
Who says that I have not tried it? I have. For me, improvement is measured at the target. My latest work has been trying to figure out ways to sort brass, within a set that has been made in a uniform manner, so that the feel when seating bullets is likely to be more uniform within the subset that go to the line for a particular group. I am looking at the diameters of necks that have been sized with the same bushing, as well as the datum line to head measurements that have resulted from the same die setting.
 
If you think that it takes t GD 503 to check a measure, give me a drag off of that when you are through with it. I have spent a lot of time using with more than one electronic scale that measures to .02 grain, and have a couple of beam balances that I have tuned. The latest one that I did, using a web cam to monitor and magnify, I could see deflection for one granule of Varget, and additional deflection as I added additional ones. All that is needed to check a measure is one of my tuned balances, nothing else.

Added later: I also have a scale wind box that lets me use my beam scales outdoors, to weight charges when loading at the range. The powder charge tolerance issues that are so important for the best accuracy at 1,000 yards, are much less important at 100 and 200, where +-.1grain works quite well. I should probably add that I do not disagree with the proposition that many short range shooters would very likely benefit from more precise charge weights, because I believe that if they are using 133 it is unlikely that they are throwing to +-.1. I have put an inordinate amount of time and effort into learning how to do that, for the reason stated earlier, but if one wants to lug the equipment around, I think that using weighed charges is just fine. If I could see a clear relationship between weighed charges and smaller aggregates, I would be weighing too. I don't.
 
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I went the same way you have and on the target result, is what made invest in the GD 503 and it is head and shoulders above the way i tried with a tuned balance beam and lesser digitals. I found what works and what is a waist of time……….. jim
 
For 1-200 yd. or 1,000? I think that you may be comparing apples and oranges. I don't think that a lab grade balance would work at the range, on a shaky table, and additional precision, limited to preloading, will not make up for being able to adjust loads during a match, which is generally how it is done. Again, I have no doubt about what you are telling me for long range, but they are very different realities. Chargemasters became a part of the short range game because of the difficulty in throwing 133 within the desired limits, but as you are undoubtedly aware, they are not anywhere near as precise as your scale. Everything that you have said about the the advantages of using your scale is true, for long range...but not for short range match shooting.
 
Boyd, I can honestly say both, my interest now lays with 1000 yds. but in test i use 100 yds. and my light guns are 16.5 lbs. and chambered in Dasher. in testing last year the Dasher produced 6 groups in a row with the same load out of two guns and the agg. was in the zeros. The largest was .091 and the smallest was.043. This was better than my old PPC. I'm just talking about raw accuracy, the same load was used to set the record loaded on the same everything and set a new 1000 yd.IBS 6 match agg. record of 3.072" total score was 299. check the NBRSA. records and see where that is in relation to mine. Same pre loaded rounds over many different conditions but the same results. Maybe annealing, trimming and pointing, bearing surface length and the GD 503 and even freezing the barrels and the Juenke makes a difference?……… jim
 
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