Pellet Sorting

C

cris

Guest
Plenty of options on this subject.

Sorting by weight
Sorting by head size
Sorting by skirt size
Sorting by rolling
Sorting by some combination of the above

Not to mention,

Sizing the head
Sizing the skirt
Sizing both head and skirt
or some combination of the above or none of the above. You simply take them out of the tin and shoot.

If you are willing to share, give us your process, when it really counts, if not, simply tell us what you do without the top secrets.
 
Steven,

You left off the part about Washing and Lubing your pellets.

Before I doing anything I always wash my pellets. By doing this I can feel confident that I have not only removed any lubricants and releasing agents that may have been applied during the manufacturing process, but also that I will be washing away most of the lead shards and bits left behind during that process.

For a long time I used Simple Green followed by a good rinsing with plain water, then way too much time waiting for them to dry. I had pellets laid out on paper towels all over the place, and usually with a fan or two blowing across them. The washing part worked great. The problem was, not only did it take too long to get them dry, but that the pellets would start to oxidize way too quickly, and because I do most of what Steven suggested it was either cause for a very long day, or running well into the next before I could reapply a lube ...that is unless something else interrupted me. Consequently, by the time I usually started putting the lube back on, the pellets would often times be showing signs of oxidation.

Finally, this past summer a shooting buddy suggested I use "Brakleen" to wash them. It does a great job of cleaning, require no rising, then afterward the pellets simply have to be laid out for a short time on a paper towel to dry, and I haven't noticed any signs of oxidation since no matter how long it takes to complete the task at hand.

As for whether I measure the heads, shirts and/or roll them: I'm more interested in the uniformity of the ratio between heads and skirts then to the actual dimensions, so I just roll. It's not that I wouldn't like to measure and size my heads and skirts, it's just that I haven't seen a practical way to do so, so rolling will have to do for now. By rolling it lets me not only see how uniform the pellets are by the way they ark across a flat surface (I use a piece of 12"x12" mirrored tile), but also if there are any distortions on the rims of the heads and/or skirts. Unbeknownst to me, I was having trouble hearing this until last fall when I finally got around to buying hear aids. Funny thing is, now I simply crank the aids up to maximum, and it's just amazing how much shows up! In fact, during my last rolling session I actually had to turn the aids back down a click in order to get an even truer reading. Great stuff this modern day technology, that's for sure!

Good luck with whatever you are doing, and just remember that as long as it keeps working for you don't change whatever it is you are doing. But, at the same time, remember to remain open-minded to what others have to say, because no matter how good whatever it is you are doing, there is always something better out there.

Dave Shattuck
 
Pellet sorting ?

Thanks Steve for opening up this can of worms like we didn't have enough going on trying to put them little boogers in the same hole.
I got started on this pellet sizing thing a couple of years ago trying to apply all my BR centerfire bullet making knowledge to pellets. I knew two things had to be there being an old student of FW Mann and a competive BR shooter for45 years. First was the head and skirt had to be concentric with each other for the pellet to center it's self in the chamber/bore. This assuming the chamber and crown was cut in the center of the bore diameter to start with.The second was the complete skirt had to be 90 degrees to the true center axis of the pellet to assure it's exit from the crown was consistantly even, not allowing air to exit one area of the skirt before another in turn vectoring the pellet off it's intended centerline. Both factors insure the pellet will go down the bore perfectly straight and exit the crown square the same every time insuring a true on center gyroscopic spin on it's way to the target. A crooked projectile will not straighten out going down the bore. I realize that there are a few rocket scientists out there that will dispute this statement but rest assured........ I am right.
It even gets a bit more scary when looking at the base of a pellets for squarness to the pellets true centerline axis if you can figure that one out. ( I think Dan has) If you cannot remedy the base problem then the pellet being centered in the bore is useless. They have to totally compliment each other to obtain the greatest benefit.
I bought some drill bushings way back when as they come in tenths and began sizing both head and skirt. You soon reason that the skirt is going to blow out to whatever the bore is anyway but you want it in a controlled and consistant manner. You still need it going down the bore straight so both have to be done. If you carefully look at the heads as I did as I had a microscope for just that purpose, you will quickly notice that all heads are not created equal or are in fact round. This most probably caused by the ogive punch tollerances and the centering tollerances within the die as the top ram comes down into the die body. This fact made the water even muddier when I realized if I had more of a flat spot on one side of the pellet head when sized this probably meant I had more lead on that side of the pellet than the other meaning it was out of balance, something I really didn't need to know. I tried rolling pellets too when I didn't understand how and gave up after rolling the same pellet several times, never could get it to repeat. I have recently been brought up to speed on this method of perfecton after being informed it is a bit more complex than I initially envisioned. Plus the fact that they told me I didn't have a clue what I was doing........Peers are so kind in their analysand. ( thanks Steve)

I just bought a new microscope reasoning somehow it would allow me to fully understand the entire cosmos and the complexity of my pellet problems. My advise to all is DO NOT buy one. You will never figure out how we manage to get them together as we do knowing all that possibly could be wrong. When one realizes what is taking place with a puff of air and a pellet taking out a .060 spot at 25 meters........it's about as close as one is going to get to witnessing a miracle.

To save pellet skirts that are dented a bit I put a ball bearing on the ram on my sizing press and as I size the pellets the ball also pushes the skirt out to the chamfer or lead on the bushing reforming it to perfection. You have to play with the ball diameter and depth as you can deform the skirt. You not only save a ton of pellets that you would normally throw away but they shoot real well.

I think my old and now deceased shooting buddy and nemesis Larry Burchfield said it best while shooting a match beside me one hot Texas day" You know Frank I liked this game a bunch more when I didn't know nothing about it. I even think I shot better"

For what it's worth....................Frank
 
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You DO realize the "ratio" between head and skirt can be ideal on several individual pellets, so the "roll" the same, yet they may be several ten-thousandths, or even a thou or two different in actual diameter, right?
 
No doubt about that therealld. But until I get set up with something better it's all I have for now. And I am looking.
 
I size(swage) the skirts through a die, then roll. If I've got something important to shoot, I weigh the "keepers" after I roll. A recent weighing session with Falcon 13.4's was interesting. My keepers ranged from 13.16 to 13.68gr:eek: I don't think I got 350 usable pellets out of that particular tin:mad:
Todd
 
Sorry about the pot getting stirred up a bit but my solution is the one I use. I took a .116 drill bushing and had it indicated to 1/10 diameter and length and then had it ground out to .224 X1/8 deep. This insures both the head and skirt are totally in line with each other.

Here is the catch guys, the bushing cost about $23.00 with shipping. Getting it ground out to my tollerances and diameter cost me $125.00 ...............got to be Obamanomics.
If you know someone who is cheaper please asvise ASAP

Frank
 
God Joe, that right out of the can thing really hurts................

Frank
 
I have found, on many occasions, that no amount of sizing or weighing would get SOME lots of pellets to shoot well, while other lots that shoot decent right out of the box are somewhat improved by sorting out those not weighing the same as their brothers. I used to sort out pee-wees (small skirt) with a die, but now feel weighing sorts them out more accurately, since a bent skirt pellet might feel correct going thru a die but yet not be.

Unfortunately, I have found that most of my benchrest guns shot worse when otherwise decent sorted and weighed pellets were sized, so I don't do it. While I have seen some folks having good results with seating pellets into their guns with ball seaters, this too doesn't seem to improve my scores, so I don't do it.
 
LD, your experiences are the very blood that moves this sport forward. We all by nature keep trying things over and over trying to exact some edge and improve our lot. Some of it works in some guns as we have learned and not in others. It is the experience that counts and what we extract out of it. Stating it lets us all learn by the influx of both varied tests and knowledge.
Your experiments tells us we do not fully understand the mechanics of the beast yet adds a bit more to the equation so we may press on for the grail.
Please know by putting in print your experiences, outcomes good, bad or whatever is what we truly value here.....Thank you.

Frank
 
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shadowalker said:
Sorry about the pot getting stirred up a bit but my solution is the one I use. I took a .116 drill bushing and had it indicated to 1/10 diameter and length and then had it ground out to .224 X1/8 deep. This insures both the head and skirt are totally in line with each other.

Here is the catch guys, the bushing cost about $23.00 with shipping. Getting it ground out to my tollerances and diameter cost me $125.00 ...............got to be Obamanomics.
If you know someone who is cheaper please asvise ASAP

Frank
Click to expand...

My shooting partner told me today the top of a BIC Pen was perfect; look in public places for one that has been lost and it won't cost nuthin :)
 
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After thinking about this for awhile I am wondering if, perhaps, the rear of the skirt being uniform may be the most criticle part of the whole deal?
 
Pete, now you're catching on.........of course it is important......The goal of benchrest shooting is to eliminate as many variables as possible providing the shooter with the most accurate tool to work with.

The front head diameter that is going to ride on or be engraved by the rifling and rear skirt diameter must be on the pellets true centerline axis to realize the greatest accuracy. This combination of concentric diameters insures the pellet will set straight in the chamber. It also insures the least amount of distortion to the skirt as it blows out to chamber diameter all of us hoping the base is square. Most 22 chambers will be about .216 on the front and .224 on the rear realizing too shooters are always playing with different combinations to see what works best. The same ratio would would apply on the .177
There are a couple of other items that have to be in place to compliment the issue such as a dead center chamber and perfect on center 90 degree crown to make it all work. As stated before the combination of machining expertice insures the pellet is centered in the bore which is right where it has to be in order to extract the most accuracy out of it. The uncentered pellet may be the most accurate one ever produced but if it is setting off center by only tenths of a thousanths it is going down the bore crooked and will exit the crown crooked with the same degree of angle. This condition allows air to excape through the first available opening between the crown and pellet base kicking the pellet sideways or whatever from it's intended true line flight to the target. Propelled forward the oscillating pellet struggles to regain a true axis spin. It now vectors into the wind or existing condition further altering it's flight path caused by the increased drag factor. Anytime a projectile varies from it's true axis spin the drag factor increases as well as flight time.
In doing so the combination of situations confronting the pellet now insures the pellet can no longer spins on it's intended true tight axis but an enlarged circular one and does so all the way to the target. This pellet will not hit in the group but will now be located somewhere on the outside of your centered pellet group.

The reason I know about this is I read FW Mann's book a couple of hundred times and many years ago in the late 50's or 60's and my free rifle centerfire days I made one of the first assembled cartridge bullet spinners to prove him wrong. This tool showed me that if projectiles were not straight in the bore or bases not flat, just as the good Doctor's text and tests proved, they would enlarge the group............ So much for trying to outsmart smart people.
I got so good at bending bullets in the case to the thousanths of an inch I could predict the shot location and could when marking and indexing bullets in the chamber shoot a group in a complete circle.

You also must realize that if your name is Joe Freidrich none of the above applies......just can't believe he does that right out of the can stuff. They are terrible!..........You just know he has a secret underground lab where all kinds of science takes place. He sneaks out there at night munching on those avocados snickerin' doin' all kinds of secret stuff he ain't fessin' up to..........................He just tell's us that macho can stuff to distract and confuse us.

For what it's worth.

Frank
 
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Frank,

To be completely honest, I dislike having to go through all the processes to get better shooting pellets, done it and more, just don't have the patience but I will to some level, wash, sort and weigh but that's only when I'm in the mood which isn't often. I enjoy working with centerfire loads. I guess I got burned out chasing the rimfire game for so many years and for myself this air-rifle is way more involvement for accuracy then rimfire at present.

I know what we have to work with as of now is what it is, and with a lot of dedication and persistence from folks like yourself will benefit this game overall in the long haul. With everything being equal or working as it should I know the weak link is the pellet, that's the direction I'm headed for, and hopefully it will be soon , just waiting on a few of those scientist :) to finish up their end.

Regards,
Joe
 
Joe, Steve and I both about a year or so ago came to the same conclusion on the pellet. We knew the pellet was the weak link in airgun accuracy and to control the game the pellet issue had to be addressed and set out to do just that, as you have.................Will be interesting.

Thanks, Frank
 
I agree with the simplest process, open the tin, insert pellet into bore. BTW, H&N is finally going to screw top tins. I do find, however, biscuits and gravy for breakfast has a tendency to raise my average card score. ;->
Mike
Wild River Airguns
 
All about the skirts.

Pete Wass said:
After thinking about this for awhile I am wondering if, perhaps, the rear of the skirt being uniform may be the most criticle part of the whole deal?
Click to expand...

Strange when my shooting friend Jimmey said watch this, as he used his fingers and squeezed the skirt of a pellet then fired at the aim point of the previous shot. Right through the same hole he said. Just luck I guess the wind probably shifted.

I used to sort with a BIC pen some 20 years ago generally resulted in three piles, one of which was right to the trash can
Not sure what it measured but I think the process eliminated the bad flyers. Worked well in '95.

I am with Joe on out of the tin. Less work almost as much fun untill you get the 7 or eight. We have had good luck in a couple of rifles with Crossmans out of the cardboard box. We have not been able to find any good lots lately. One of the guns shoots JSB heavy ok but the other you might as well throw a rock.

I have a purchase some older JSB .22 for my Open class rifle. I managed to turn in a 743 outdoors which is my personal best.

I have a hooked another I think, with my story of buying 5000 quality pellets and shooting them instead of the Rim Fire Match Ammo and buy a new high dollar air gun every year on the ammo savings alone.
 
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