Open question for Varmint Al
- Thread starter alinwa
- Start date
Lynn,
I believe that adding weight to the muzzle increases amplitude.
In conversation with Harold Vaughn he mentioned that in his opinion the new direction would be to make barrels "heavier and whippier" which he'd tried to accomplish using weight-forward and barrels coated with lead.
He couldn't get the lead to stick and weight-forward has a tendency to add more conflict.......the method we discussed was cutting radial slots in a barrel to weaken it as a beam while maintaining weight-for-length.
The idea was to make the tuning slots wider by increasing amplitude.
Or I may have misunderstood him.
Another way is to add length as I 'believe' expiper advocates.... but again, I may be misunderstanding Roger too.
al-don't know nuttin'-inwa
I believe that adding weight to the muzzle increases amplitude.
In conversation with Harold Vaughn he mentioned that in his opinion the new direction would be to make barrels "heavier and whippier" which he'd tried to accomplish using weight-forward and barrels coated with lead.
He couldn't get the lead to stick and weight-forward has a tendency to add more conflict.......the method we discussed was cutting radial slots in a barrel to weaken it as a beam while maintaining weight-for-length.
The idea was to make the tuning slots wider by increasing amplitude.
Or I may have misunderstood him.
Another way is to add length as I 'believe' expiper advocates.... but again, I may be misunderstanding Roger too.
al-don't know nuttin'-inwa
I can't see the relevance?
Hit a barrel, it will ring.
Hit a barrel with a tuner, it will ring.
What does this have to do with fingering a ringing barrel?
The way I see it, I have a barrel:
--I feed the barrel an impulse which makes it wag up and down.
--Changing the wag on purpose is called "tuning."
--I believe that adding a muzzle weight or otherwise making the barrel floppier-for-weight can make the "tuning windows" wider.... It is further my understanding (could be wrong here
) that this is because the waves are either taller or farther apart. Since farther apart doesn't seem logical to me (the impulse hasn't changed) I've picked amplitude as the thing that's changed. Maybe adding a weight-forward tuner does lengthen the frequency too but I'm currently not messing with them. I'm guessin' here, WAGgin' and SWAGgin' because I've found whippier barrels to plot taller sine waves on target than short/stiff ones.
Are you saying that in your view adding muzzle weight makes a barrel act stiffer? Wag up and down less?
al
Alinwa
A tuner is a dampener not a amplifier or exciter so it dampens the amplitude or makes it flatter.
When you ring a barrel and touch it with your fingers you are also dampening the signal thats why it quits making noise.If you keep exciting it by hitting it the ringing will continue until your arm gets tired.
If your barrel is whipping really fast and you have two velocities of ammunition they will print wider on the target.If you slow the amplitude down they will print closer together or in the graphics by Varmintg Al they will print with 48% less dispersion.
If you go out in your reloading room and grab a blank it will have a dead spot 2.5 - 3 inches behind the muzzle.If you pinch it in the dead zone it will keep ringing because you haven't damped down the amplitude.When you install your tuner ahead of the muzzle you can ring the barrel again with your fingers and feel for the dead spot.When the dead spot is at the crown your there.
If you play with the weight behind the muzzle you get a lazy tuner or one that doesn't tune very much.Jim Borden uses that type of tuner.You are still dampening the signal your just not dampening it very much.
If you come to the NBRSA 1000 Yard Nationals you can tune my heavygun after we quit shooting for the day.At 100 yards you will be shocked at how good a 211 grain bullet can group.The advantage of the heavygun is it doesn't require the tweaking of a lightgun so its easier to see/get consistent results.
Waterboy
A tuner is a dampener not a amplifier or exciter so it dampens the amplitude or makes it flatter.
When you ring a barrel and touch it with your fingers you are also dampening the signal thats why it quits making noise.If you keep exciting it by hitting it the ringing will continue until your arm gets tired.
If your barrel is whipping really fast and you have two velocities of ammunition they will print wider on the target.If you slow the amplitude down they will print closer together or in the graphics by Varmintg Al they will print with 48% less dispersion.
If you go out in your reloading room and grab a blank it will have a dead spot 2.5 - 3 inches behind the muzzle.If you pinch it in the dead zone it will keep ringing because you haven't damped down the amplitude.When you install your tuner ahead of the muzzle you can ring the barrel again with your fingers and feel for the dead spot.When the dead spot is at the crown your there.
If you play with the weight behind the muzzle you get a lazy tuner or one that doesn't tune very much.Jim Borden uses that type of tuner.You are still dampening the signal your just not dampening it very much.
If you come to the NBRSA 1000 Yard Nationals you can tune my heavygun after we quit shooting for the day.At 100 yards you will be shocked at how good a 211 grain bullet can group.The advantage of the heavygun is it doesn't require the tweaking of a lightgun so its easier to see/get consistent results.
Waterboy
I understand what you're saying but don't necessarily agree.
I'll agree that a tuner isn't an amplifier or exciter...... by definition these two items feed into the system.
Nor though do I believe that a tuner is simply a dampener. (actually damper I believe... I'll use 'damper' in my examples)
IMO a damper actually kills vibrations, "deadens" them. A finger on a barrel or guitar string, a damper pedal on a piano, the rubber limbsaver devices..... dampers.
A bloop tube, a tuner, a recontoured barrel etc are in my opinion attenuators not dampers. A rubber mounted tuner can be considered a little of both..... but the "muzzle devices" I'm referring to are those which are firmly and solidly affixed.
Attenuation can result in larger/smaller, taller/shorter, broader/narrower etc waveforms. Spikes, nodes and antinodes..... humps and bumps and things that go twerk, SAME energy in the system just rearranged.
Damping on the other hand robs from the system.
I guess I just don't see muzzle devices as described by Bill, Butch, Borden, or Beggs as dampers.....
But as attenuators.
Of course I could be wrong!
A'gain
al
Attenuator
An attenuator is an electronic device that reduces the amplitude or power of a signal without appreciably distorting its waveform.
An attenuator is effectively the opposite of an amplifier, though the two work by different methods. While an amplifier provides gain, an attenuator provides loss, or gain less than 1.
Damper
a. A device in various keyboard instruments for deadening the vibrations of the strings.
b. A mute for various brass instruments.
4. A device that eliminates or progressively diminishes vibrations or oscillations, as of a magnetic needle
You say potato I say Potato
Waterboy
An attenuator is an electronic device that reduces the amplitude or power of a signal without appreciably distorting its waveform.
An attenuator is effectively the opposite of an amplifier, though the two work by different methods. While an amplifier provides gain, an attenuator provides loss, or gain less than 1.
Damper
a. A device in various keyboard instruments for deadening the vibrations of the strings.
b. A mute for various brass instruments.
4. A device that eliminates or progressively diminishes vibrations or oscillations, as of a magnetic needle
You say potato I say Potato
Waterboy
OK Lynn,
I picked the wrong word again...... you're right, attenuation DOES mean to reduce.
What I'm trying to describe is NOT to reduce but to redistribute or rearrange. I thought that attenuation included this.
What I'm picturing is more like sliding a bottleneck down a dobro or the slide on a steel guitar. Actually changing the pitch, not damping of robbing from it.
al
I picked the wrong word again...... you're right, attenuation DOES mean to reduce.
What I'm trying to describe is NOT to reduce but to redistribute or rearrange. I thought that attenuation included this.
What I'm picturing is more like sliding a bottleneck down a dobro or the slide on a steel guitar. Actually changing the pitch, not damping of robbing from it.
al
Alinwa
The only thing the weight from the tuner does it too dampen the amplitude of the various waves.
The placement of the weight can shift the frequency a small amount and this is what Bill Calfee is doing when he moves the node to the muzzle by putting the weight out in front several inches.
If you have been following this over the years Bill Calfee always uses the phrase "Stopped Muzzle" and gets nothing but flack for his terminology.This is what the engineers at Browning have to say about it.
How the BOSS works.
The BOSS simply tunes the vibrations of your barrel. This allows the bullet to leave the barrel the split second it is stationary.
I guess we could look up the definition of "Stopped" and "Stationary" but its looking like Bill has a pretty good handle on things if the Engineers at Browning are using similar terminology.
Waterboy
The only thing the weight from the tuner does it too dampen the amplitude of the various waves.
The placement of the weight can shift the frequency a small amount and this is what Bill Calfee is doing when he moves the node to the muzzle by putting the weight out in front several inches.
If you have been following this over the years Bill Calfee always uses the phrase "Stopped Muzzle" and gets nothing but flack for his terminology.This is what the engineers at Browning have to say about it.
How the BOSS works.
The BOSS simply tunes the vibrations of your barrel. This allows the bullet to leave the barrel the split second it is stationary.
I guess we could look up the definition of "Stopped" and "Stationary" but its looking like Bill has a pretty good handle on things if the Engineers at Browning are using similar terminology.
Waterboy
I can't really get behind any of this because the exact same effect can be had WITHOUT adding a muzzle device. It's about adjusting the timing, not "stopping" or damping. (Or attenuating, my bad)
I can tune my centerfire without a tuner by adjusting the load.
I can tune my centerfire without adjusting the load by using a tuner.
And the "stopped" and "stationary" verbiage do not account for tuning for ES. Two bullets with different velocities will hit impact higher/lower if they exit at the same ("stopped") time. Two bullets of different velocities can be made to impact the same point via tuning.
Yes, on this I'm disagreeing with both Bill and Browning.
I don't claim to be qualified to disagree, I just do........ the theory doesn't fit the facts.
al
Alinwa
The advantage of the tuner only comes into play with pre-loaded ammunition.It allows one to tune for the moment and the current conditions.In rimfire and longrange benchrest most guys don't tune there loads at the range when a match is running.
On shortrange benchrest you can show up pre-loaded and simply dial in the last little bit of accuracy or adjust for a out of tune rifle.
Pacecil
If you read this post type in Browning Boss System in your google search and watch the video on how you adjust a tuner.
Waterboy
The advantage of the tuner only comes into play with pre-loaded ammunition.It allows one to tune for the moment and the current conditions.In rimfire and longrange benchrest most guys don't tune there loads at the range when a match is running.
On shortrange benchrest you can show up pre-loaded and simply dial in the last little bit of accuracy or adjust for a out of tune rifle.
Pacecil
If you read this post type in Browning Boss System in your google search and watch the video on how you adjust a tuner.
Waterboy