Open question for Varmint Al

A

alinwa

oft dis'd member
Varmint Al, I agree with your analyses re tuning and tuners.

I admire your modeling facility, it's very helpful.

Simple question please;

Is there any DIFFERENCE between setting your muzzle "at the criss-cross of the X" versus just letting the muzzle fall where she may.

IMO the effect is the same.

Care to comment?

thanks

al
 
Not Al, but wouldn't you be saying that a tuner has no effect except maybe for a stabilizing weight?
 
alinwa said:
Is there any DIFFERENCE between setting your muzzle "at the criss-cross of the X" versus just letting the muzzle fall where she may?
Click to expand...

See this thread and post #7: http://benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64532

It takes a large long mass ahead of the muzzle to put the second mode's node at the muzzle. In the above calculation it introduced a high frequency vibration that would possibly give very narrow tune points. Also with Esten's Bong Test, he was convinced that within weight limits he couldn't add enough mass to move the node to the muzzle. See this link: http://www.varmintal.com/aeste.htm#BongTest

I don't see advantage in the calculation of having the node at the muzzle.
Good Hunting... from Varmint Al
coyotel.gif
 
Thank you Varmint Al,

you understood my question perfectly. That is the verification I wanted.

al
 
In other words, a tuner doesn't matter and it probably doesn't even help to install one. Biggest hoax in the game.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Madrox said:
In other words, a tuner doesn't matter and it probably doesn't even help to install one. Biggest hoax in the game.
Click to expand...

"In other words" could mean anything on earth but MY words carried no such subliminal message.

al
 
Subliminal? Poor word choice. Insinuated maybe. Better choice.
 
alinwa said:
No.

What I'm saying is that where the muzzle occurs has no effect.


al
Click to expand...
I wouldn't go so far as to say NO effect, but the Browning Boss has shown positive results and does not get the node to the muzzle - it was only designed to get bullet exit timing to "top of swing" whare barrel motion was least.
 
Vibe said:
I wouldn't go so far as to say NO effect, but the Browning Boss has shown positive results and does not get the node to the muzzle - it was only designed to get bullet exit timing to "top of swing" whare barrel motion was least.
Click to expand...

Let me put it another way...... IMO the angle of launch is dictated by the portion of the bore BEHIND the 'X', whether or not there's a little more bore between the 'X' and the muzzle is immaterial.

Now, whether a tuner gives "positive results" or not is another subject.
And whether or not "top of the swing" is relevant, another......... but they definitely DO SOMETHING! :)

LOL

al
 
No problem. However, I do have a serious question without putting words on your screen. You say: "Is there any DIFFERENCE between setting your muzzle "at the criss-cross of the X" versus just letting the muzzle fall where she may.

IMO the effect is the same."

So, I think I know what you mean by "letting the muzzle fall where she may."

But the muzzle will fall somewhere without a tuner. There's mass at the end of the barrel whether it's past the barrel or not. The muzzle may fall somewhere else with a tuner, but from what you say the randomness of it wouldn't matter. In other words, the way I read this, which may be wrong, is you think that you can stick the tuner on and it will work as well as if you try to adjust it somehow. There is no trick or trap in this because I can't say for sure that I don't see it the same way. But, if that is the case, would you even need a tuner or would it do anything aside from the weight effect?
 
The first comment that simplified this for me!

Vibe said:
I wouldn't go so far as to say NO effect, but the Browning Boss has shown positive results and does not get the node to the muzzle - it was only designed to get bullet exit timing to "top of swing" whare barrel motion was least.
Click to expand...

Vibe,
Your short comment really cut through all of this for me. Let me get this straight:

The muzzle is swinging in sort of a pendulum motion. The fastest motion is at the center of the swing, and the movement stops and reverses at the ends. The important thing is the position of the muzzle when the bullet exits.

So the function of the tuner is to shift the vibrations so the bullet is exiting at the ends of the pendulum movement, when the muzzle is coming to a stop and reversing direction.

Is that the model your talking about? It does simplify the explanation for me.

Regards, Ron
 
RJM said:
The muzzle is swinging in sort of a pendulum motion. The fastest motion is at the center of the swing, and the movement stops and reverses at the ends. The important thing is the position of the muzzle when the bullet exits.

So the function of the tuner is to shift the vibrations so the bullet is exiting at the ends of the pendulum movement, when the muzzle is coming to a stop and reversing direction.

Is that the model your talking about? It does simplify the explanation for me.

Regards, Ron
Click to expand...
In a nutshell. Yes. Pendulum motion is first mode vibration with one node at the receiver, and we are also looking at the 2nd mode wave form where the muzzle end also has a nod - but yes - in all cases we are looking to have the bullet ecit while the barrel is in the process of slowing down and reversing direction.
 
Madrox said:
No problem. However, I do have a serious question without putting words on your screen. You say: "Is there any DIFFERENCE between setting your muzzle "at the criss-cross of the X" versus just letting the muzzle fall where she may.

IMO the effect is the same."

So, I think I know what you mean by "letting the muzzle fall where she may."

But the muzzle will fall somewhere without a tuner. There's mass at the end of the barrel whether it's past the barrel or not. The muzzle may fall somewhere else with a tuner, but from what you say the randomness of it wouldn't matter. In other words, the way I read this, which may be wrong, is you think that you can stick the tuner on and it will work as well as if you try to adjust it somehow. There is no trick or trap in this because I can't say for sure that I don't see it the same way. But, if that is the case, would you even need a tuner or would it do anything aside from the weight effect?
Click to expand...

Ok, I'm still not being clear.

I believe that the barrel vibrates as Varmint Al diagrams it.

I believe that the barrel flex induced by the system is enough that it actually makes the bullets print higher and lower on the target. I've got many barrels that will map a sine wave at 200yds.

I believe that adding weight forward (bloop, noodle, tuner, wad of rubber bands, muzzle device) increases the amplitude of this vibration making the bullets print more high and more low, but that a naked barrel will work just fine, if you can find and hold a tune.


I'm with the crowd who believes that "tuning" is the process of making your load and your barrel vibrations work together such that the slower bullets exit the barrel with a higher launch angle. Just like lobbing a football or firing a bullet pass....... both footballs (bullets) hit the receiver (target)

This is the key to the thing..... you must be able to change things up and adjust things such that this naturally occurring pattern HELPS you instead of hindering you. Controlling the timing is the key........

In rimfire you can "find your tune" one of several ways; change lots (velocity) or change barrel harmonics (tuner or recrown or recontour.)

In centerfire you have the added control of reloading for velocity.

Am I making any better sense???

:eek:


al
 
I believe that adding weight forward (bloop, noodle, tuner, wad of rubber bands, muzzle device) increases the amplitude of this vibration making the bullets print more high and more low, but that a naked barrel will work just fine.

Alinwa
Are you sure about this?
Waterboy
 
Lynn said:
I believe that adding weight forward (bloop, noodle, tuner, wad of rubber bands, muzzle device) increases the amplitude of this vibration making the bullets print more high and more low, but that a naked barrel will work just fine.

Alinwa
Are you sure about this?
Waterboy
Click to expand...

I ain't sure about nuttin' except that when I claim to 'know' something I have a tendency to liberally besmear myownself with the proverbial egg-in-the-face. :D

This is why I say "I believe."

I QUIT tuners 10-12yrs ago, and now here I am back at it..... with some barrels threaded for Borden and Shadetree tuners.

But I 'believe' that "tuning" is a real effect.

And I did try the wad of rubber bands and the rubber "vibration dampener" devices to no repeatable avail.

BTW the late Skip Otto was hanging glasses of water on barrels and placing pennies on barrels to "find the dead spot" 15-20yrs ago.

al
 
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