OK Buckos!
- Thread starter Wilbur
- Start date
Wilbur,
Sent you an email. Apparently it "couldn't be delivered" because your box is full. Essentially, sparing the details, I said that I'll allow I may not be an unbiased source, and am open for guidance.
Charles
Edit: You want me to post it, I will. Not gasoline, but not water either.
Sent you an email. Apparently it "couldn't be delivered" because your box is full. Essentially, sparing the details, I said that I'll allow I may not be an unbiased source, and am open for guidance.
Charles
Edit: You want me to post it, I will. Not gasoline, but not water either.
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Hi Wilbur,
At this point, I'm not an unbiased source, I suppose. I just started to shoot rimfire the past winter. So did what I thought the sensible thing, went on the forum, asked questions, tried to get help. Very odd answers. Watched a few other newcomers ask questions. Same treatment. See the 2010 thread from the tackdrivers forum:
http://www.takdriver.com/showthread.php?t=951
While pretty old, still seems pertinent.
With the bickering comes the opportunity for trolling. One or two will ask a seemingly innocuous question, but it will be a "question" guaranteed to start things off.
Now you know me. I can fight off this stuff, and I'm stubborn. That may not be the right approach.
I'm open for guidance.
Charles
At this point, I'm not an unbiased source, I suppose. I just started to shoot rimfire the past winter. So did what I thought the sensible thing, went on the forum, asked questions, tried to get help. Very odd answers. Watched a few other newcomers ask questions. Same treatment. See the 2010 thread from the tackdrivers forum:
http://www.takdriver.com/showthread.php?t=951
While pretty old, still seems pertinent.
With the bickering comes the opportunity for trolling. One or two will ask a seemingly innocuous question, but it will be a "question" guaranteed to start things off.
Now you know me. I can fight off this stuff, and I'm stubborn. That may not be the right approach.
I'm open for guidance.
Charles
H
Hambone
Guest
http://www.takdriver.com/showthread.php?t=951&page=3
Problems arises when someone will an over zealous digit who has access to the delete button allows their inference to be clouded by their stubbornness and their willingness to fight. Nothing adds to the drama like an accusation of trolling. Funny how a simple discourse from opposing ends of a POV often ends with one side accusing the other of trolling. When nothing could be further from the truth. I guess a loss of perspective has its part to play in that regard.
Lighten up Chuck and un-twist those shorts. You'll find they will pinch the old grapes a lot less that way.
M
Mike Hof
Guest
there must be something in the drinking water.
i have noticed the same thing has started happening on all the nice forums i visit.
i have noticed the same thing has started happening on all the nice forums i visit.
The problem is ....
I don't know what's wrong. Folks complain and I can't find what their complaining about.
I've written this before and Y'all are probably tired of it but it applies once again. On my last NRC license exam, the examiner wrote "Candidate recognized answer when shown."
Mike - could you elaborate a bit on your statement please sir?
I don't know what's wrong. Folks complain and I can't find what their complaining about.
I've written this before and Y'all are probably tired of it but it applies once again. On my last NRC license exam, the examiner wrote "Candidate recognized answer when shown."
Mike - could you elaborate a bit on your statement please sir?
H
Hambone
Guest
Wilbur
I'm in the same camp as you with people complaining yet finding it impossible to find what it is they complain about.
My guess is its mostly about ego's and overly developed sensitivities. Why folks get such a cob on regarding posts on internet forums remains one of life's minor mystery's. It seems such folks loose the time proven solution to such problems the ability to self edit their reading.
I appreciate that in life there are those that if placed in an empty room would be inclined to start an argument with the door handle within a matter of minutes. But they are small in number as well as small in intellect. Self editing works a treat on those so inclined. Such methods of dealing with those of an egotistical or carping nature was described to me as being passive aggressive and it works wonderfully.
As with any journey the road is sometimes bumpy, but with a steady hand in the wheel and a light foot on the gas. The threat of being wrecked fades along with the drama.
Have you ever considered joining the Teamsters?
I'm in the same camp as you with people complaining yet finding it impossible to find what it is they complain about.
My guess is its mostly about ego's and overly developed sensitivities. Why folks get such a cob on regarding posts on internet forums remains one of life's minor mystery's. It seems such folks loose the time proven solution to such problems the ability to self edit their reading.
I appreciate that in life there are those that if placed in an empty room would be inclined to start an argument with the door handle within a matter of minutes. But they are small in number as well as small in intellect. Self editing works a treat on those so inclined. Such methods of dealing with those of an egotistical or carping nature was described to me as being passive aggressive and it works wonderfully.
As with any journey the road is sometimes bumpy, but with a steady hand in the wheel and a light foot on the gas. The threat of being wrecked fades along with the drama.
Have you ever considered joining the Teamsters?
No sure what you are after Wilbur.
The thread where somebody insinuated Don Stith made bad stocks? (It got edited).
The Calfee is a whatever threads?
The snips at the Rimfire Accuracy forum?
The 83-post thread that says, essentially, cut rifle barrels work? (I got suckered on that one. Someone said "Say something Charles" & When I did, "Why did you say anything?" That was a good 'un, I got a laugh out of being well & truly trapped).
Etc.
These aren't all that important, except maybe for tone. Look for posts by "new to rimfire" shooters, and see how you think they're treated. That's what pissed me off.
Charles
Edit: You might get Indiana James' take too, he's been doing some deleting. And I think one of the administrators.
The thread where somebody insinuated Don Stith made bad stocks? (It got edited).
The Calfee is a whatever threads?
The snips at the Rimfire Accuracy forum?
The 83-post thread that says, essentially, cut rifle barrels work? (I got suckered on that one. Someone said "Say something Charles" & When I did, "Why did you say anything?" That was a good 'un, I got a laugh out of being well & truly trapped).
Etc.
These aren't all that important, except maybe for tone. Look for posts by "new to rimfire" shooters, and see how you think they're treated. That's what pissed me off.
Charles
Edit: You might get Indiana James' take too, he's been doing some deleting. And I think one of the administrators.
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I
IndianaJames
Guest
I sent Wilbur an email last night. I pretty much agree with you, Charles.
Jim
Jim
Charles, just what is your beef with the 6 groove thread? Nothing damaging or inflammatory is happening in that thread.
For what it is worth Wilbur, I think part of the problem is the moderating team. I have lent my services to several websites that are much bigger than this one and have never seen the kind of moderating that is going on here. It also creates a chasm between the users and the "staff" when the "staff" have their PMs turned off. How are we to communicate the "whole story" on a subject to the moderation staff when they have their PMs turned off? I agree that the personal attacks on people shouldn't be tolerated and should be deleted. What I don't agree with is the moderation staff taking umbridge with posts that they have no frame of reference to comment on. You can't expect to run a looney bin when some of the patients are masquerading as staff. I came to this website because I initially believed that it was the least biased towards the "camps" that you have in rimfire benchrest. On RFC you have Martin Hammond and his followers and on Rimfire Accuracy you have Calfee and his followers. This is the last bulwark away from that, where people are free to hear both sides of the coin, if they so choose. In the last few months there has been a HUGE boom in threads and replies on this board that were specifically created to get the conversation going in a place where it would be free from moderation, not to the extent that it was a free-for-all but, at least your words would be YOUR words and your posts were not moderated to the point of the aim of your thread being lost. I believe that great potential exists for this to continue to be THEE place for rimfire benchrest discussion, for whatever that is worth.
Thanks for the forum,
Isaac
For what it is worth Wilbur, I think part of the problem is the moderating team. I have lent my services to several websites that are much bigger than this one and have never seen the kind of moderating that is going on here. It also creates a chasm between the users and the "staff" when the "staff" have their PMs turned off. How are we to communicate the "whole story" on a subject to the moderation staff when they have their PMs turned off? I agree that the personal attacks on people shouldn't be tolerated and should be deleted. What I don't agree with is the moderation staff taking umbridge with posts that they have no frame of reference to comment on. You can't expect to run a looney bin when some of the patients are masquerading as staff. I came to this website because I initially believed that it was the least biased towards the "camps" that you have in rimfire benchrest. On RFC you have Martin Hammond and his followers and on Rimfire Accuracy you have Calfee and his followers. This is the last bulwark away from that, where people are free to hear both sides of the coin, if they so choose. In the last few months there has been a HUGE boom in threads and replies on this board that were specifically created to get the conversation going in a place where it would be free from moderation, not to the extent that it was a free-for-all but, at least your words would be YOUR words and your posts were not moderated to the point of the aim of your thread being lost. I believe that great potential exists for this to continue to be THEE place for rimfire benchrest discussion, for whatever that is worth.
Thanks for the forum,
Isaac
A
alan k
Guest
I called Don's stocks lumber (in the old days a nice piece of lumber on your rifle was a good thing) tongue in cheek. When Don told me it was taken the wrong way "I" edited it and corrected the post. I don't post much cause I got tired of getting trashed.
Al Kunard
Al Kunard
Issac, My only real beefs with the 6-groove thread are two -- its length without anything except what I take as testimonials (you might consider that unfair), and that it gives the opinion there is something special about these barrels. No one knows what makes a good barrel. Certainly not a manufacturing technique such as cut rifling versus button rifling. Certainly not the number of grooves. Just because Bill Calfee has been known to utter absurdities is no excuse. It seems he's not the only one to give a lot of words with no information.
I think your bringing up the other rimfire forums also shows there is an us-versus-them mentality at play. I agree Benchrest Central should be a bulwark; should be above "us versus them," and most importantly, should be helpful to new shooters.
Just look at some of the other forums on Benchrest Central, an how helpful they often are. "Which is best" questions abound, and need to be dispelled. There is a current question about "what bullet is best with X many grooves" (see http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?80248-Barrel-twist-rate-and-of-groove-question). OK, I'm cherry picking, but part of the role of BR Central is to help, or try and help people realize that they have some serious misconceptions.
I made a post on the rimfire forum asking about how to tune a sporter barrel by removing metal from the "bulb" at the end. "It's a fine art. Get a good gunsmith" was the reply. Fair enough to state that as a caution, but when I continued, not much information was added. I still don't know if Bill B. was being serious (I took it as such) or snide. And see Tim's now deleted remark to Pete Wass. Well, you can't but Wilbur can.
Etcetera.
* * *
It is not a friendly place, save for the group that's kind of made it into their own social network. A bit of that of that is OK, can be ignored by those of us not in and no desire to join that group. Sadly, all too often, those who aren't get remarks like the one tim gave, then to his credit, removed.
* * *
I didn't realize Mel Eck is feuding with Don Stith. Why should I? Makes it hard to get simple answers, and not my problem. What was my problem was when he hinted that Stith didn't do good work, and when asked to reconsider the post, said his remark was to stand. Someone had to go into that thread & clean up all the nastiness -- I assume Elmer or Wilbur, but of course I don't know.
(That is another rule of BR Central, you don't bash someone's work, you find another way to resolve a problem.)
* * *
To try and be clear: there is too much insulting going on. There are products/tradesmen being dissed. There is a clique mentality -- and while we can live with some of that mentality, it sometimes takes a serious misstep.
I have expressed some of those feelings on the forum, have given a couple infractions, and have deleted a couple of posts. Aside from Hambone's posts, I believe I've deleted two or three since starting to pay attention to the Rimfire Forum this summer. I now have a reputation. I can live with it.
I'm not going to go into Hambone.
I think your bringing up the other rimfire forums also shows there is an us-versus-them mentality at play. I agree Benchrest Central should be a bulwark; should be above "us versus them," and most importantly, should be helpful to new shooters.
Just look at some of the other forums on Benchrest Central, an how helpful they often are. "Which is best" questions abound, and need to be dispelled. There is a current question about "what bullet is best with X many grooves" (see http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?80248-Barrel-twist-rate-and-of-groove-question). OK, I'm cherry picking, but part of the role of BR Central is to help, or try and help people realize that they have some serious misconceptions.
I made a post on the rimfire forum asking about how to tune a sporter barrel by removing metal from the "bulb" at the end. "It's a fine art. Get a good gunsmith" was the reply. Fair enough to state that as a caution, but when I continued, not much information was added. I still don't know if Bill B. was being serious (I took it as such) or snide. And see Tim's now deleted remark to Pete Wass. Well, you can't but Wilbur can.
Etcetera.
* * *
It is not a friendly place, save for the group that's kind of made it into their own social network. A bit of that of that is OK, can be ignored by those of us not in and no desire to join that group. Sadly, all too often, those who aren't get remarks like the one tim gave, then to his credit, removed.
* * *
I didn't realize Mel Eck is feuding with Don Stith. Why should I? Makes it hard to get simple answers, and not my problem. What was my problem was when he hinted that Stith didn't do good work, and when asked to reconsider the post, said his remark was to stand. Someone had to go into that thread & clean up all the nastiness -- I assume Elmer or Wilbur, but of course I don't know.
(That is another rule of BR Central, you don't bash someone's work, you find another way to resolve a problem.)
* * *
To try and be clear: there is too much insulting going on. There are products/tradesmen being dissed. There is a clique mentality -- and while we can live with some of that mentality, it sometimes takes a serious misstep.
I have expressed some of those feelings on the forum, have given a couple infractions, and have deleted a couple of posts. Aside from Hambone's posts, I believe I've deleted two or three since starting to pay attention to the Rimfire Forum this summer. I now have a reputation. I can live with it.
I'm not going to go into Hambone.
MIKECAMERON
New member
QUESTION: Is telling the truth about something, i.e. if a barrel maker makes crooked barrels or a scope maker that builds scopes that dont hold center, bashing?Or is it doing a service to the comunity to let folks know that they can do better?I think the answer to this question depends on ones point of view and their relationship to the one pointed out.Now a moderator shouldnt have anything personal involved in what they are moderating, if they do then they arent moderating but taking sides, and when they take sides which is what happens here too often then you end up with pissed off members on every side.
I
IndianaJames
Guest
It's sometimes not easy to do, Mike. Let it go on, and you get members pissed off because the thread was allowed to go on for so long.
Jim
Jim
MIKECAMERON
New member
But there needs to be moderators who can differentiate between bashing and informing the members, it just seems to to me that there is some trouble with mods here in that respect, JMHO.
H
Hambone
Guest
Issac, My only real beefs with the 6-groove thread are two -- its length without anything except what I take as testimonials (you might consider that unfair), and that it gives the opinion there is something special about these barrels. No one knows what makes a good barrel. Certainly not a manufacturing technique such as cut rifling versus button rifling. Certainly not the number of grooves. Just because Bill Calfee has been known to utter absurdities is no excuse. It seems he's not the only one to give a lot of words with no information.[/QUOTE]
Who handed you the role of judge in these matters? Moderation isn't about editing posts and comments simple because you consider them to be irrelevant. Or that you disagree with the opinion and feel that it does little to enhance the thread. Members don't require moderators to make their minds up for them.
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So has Charles Manson. He lives with his too.
Glad to read that. No one likes being going into. Sounds like the start of a Marx Bro's routine. http://www.myfirstrecord.co.uk/recordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Marx-Brothers2.jpg
Who handed you the role of judge in these matters? Moderation isn't about editing posts and comments simple because you consider them to be irrelevant. Or that you disagree with the opinion and feel that it does little to enhance the thread. Members don't require moderators to make their minds up for them.
Geez another rule! Nothing wrong with genuine, honest criticism. As long as its not libellous. we are all adults here, we left the kindergarten behind long ways back.
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Thats life. I think it might be political.
So has Charles Manson. He lives with his too.
Glad to read that. No one likes being going into. Sounds like the start of a Marx Bro's routine. http://www.myfirstrecord.co.uk/recordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Marx-Brothers2.jpg>>I made a post on the rimfire forum asking about how to tune a sporter barrel by removing metal from the "bulb" at the end. "It's a fine art. Get a good gunsmith" was the reply. Fair enough to state that as a caution, but when I continued, not much information was added. I still don't know if Bill B. was being serious (I took it as such) or snide.<<
I was being completely serious. With this whole internet/forum thing where there are no vocal tones or body language to aide in effective communication, one has to be careful in reading into a simple statement or recommendation intent which is not there. My point was simple (and I thought to the point) that tuning a sporter barrel is best left up to the experienced professionals that have a track record because it's very easy to ruin a great sporter barrel by taking too much off. While a very good friend of mine is maybe the top sporter gunsmith in the country right now, I have no idea how he tunes his sporter barrels and even if I did I would not divulge his methods as it is not my place to do so. I seriously gave you my best advice and you're inability to determine sincerity from a snide remark brings your qualifications as a moderator into some serious question - and I'm being quite serious about that. Your objection to the thread about the 6 groove cut-rifled barrel is yet another example of a failure to comprehend what that thread was all about.
I was being completely serious. With this whole internet/forum thing where there are no vocal tones or body language to aide in effective communication, one has to be careful in reading into a simple statement or recommendation intent which is not there. My point was simple (and I thought to the point) that tuning a sporter barrel is best left up to the experienced professionals that have a track record because it's very easy to ruin a great sporter barrel by taking too much off. While a very good friend of mine is maybe the top sporter gunsmith in the country right now, I have no idea how he tunes his sporter barrels and even if I did I would not divulge his methods as it is not my place to do so. I seriously gave you my best advice and you're inability to determine sincerity from a snide remark brings your qualifications as a moderator into some serious question - and I'm being quite serious about that. Your objection to the thread about the 6 groove cut-rifled barrel is yet another example of a failure to comprehend what that thread was all about.
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