No Definitive Answers
- Thread starter Andy Cross
- Start date
T
TedH
Guest
Why is that?
Again, shooting rifles made by other competitors, and even shooting with them, doesn't slice the bread Al. There is a world of difference between actual competition and simply shooting a couple of groups downrange in the company of competitors! While we may agree that the 6ppc is the "best round for the job", we obviously disagree on what may qualify a man to speak intelligently about something he's never done.
Now, you've hinted at this before several times Al and I have to wonder what you mean because it sounds as if old Al has a secret tucked away in the woods of Washington that if it were to get out, the BR community would be revolutionized. It sounds as if all of the competitive BR rig builders who make winning rifles are not doing it correctly? Perhaps Dwight Scott, Mike Bryant, Billy Stevens, and Dave Bruno need to take a road trip to the woods of Washington to learn from good ol' Al (who just bought his first lathe) how to properly make a rifle??? Again Al, if this is true, you need to quit wasting time at 600 yards and get on over to Tacoma and show those boys how it's done! Rick Graham, Eric Stanton, Mustafa Bilal, and Cecil Tucker are gettin' just too darn good over there and need you to whip on 'em a bit! Take a couple days off, put the kids in a babysitter's care for one weekend, and head on out!
You drop a lot of names but you don't really get the point. This isn't about whether or not Ol' Anilwa can shoot. You can say it all's you want but it doesn't make it relevant.....
Nor is it about "beating the PPC" and it never has been. The people you mention make 6PPC's. The guys you mention shoot 6PPC's gener'ly smithed (now) by Kostanich. Steve makes a great 6PPC. Now, call Steve and ask him to make you a ???? to the same spec. I have. Doesn't signify a thing except that 6PPC is the obvious choice.
I've had PPC's and BR's built by guys who build world-class 6PPC's and the BR's don't shoot as well. I've even got two barrels from the same production run, one in 6PPC and one in 6BR for the same gun. The 6PPC is competitive, the 6BR is not. I've also got BR-based rounds that are competitive. But in NONE of this is it relevant that Ol' Al go over and "show experienced shooters a thing or two..." This is just goofy, and all I can take from it is that you like to pick on cripples.
If you really want to spend the money I can (and have, at length, long before you found this board) explain to you how to make a competitive cartridge from the BR case or even the 220R. And then you'll have to find someone to do it for you. This why I bought a lathe. I got tired of trying to find someone to do the work.
All I've ever asked of a gunsmith is "can you or will you do it this way?" And I've had some great work done by some great people.
I've also wasted a lot of time and money on other people's ideas.
In YOUR limited world GG, there's one simple answer...... shoot a 6PPC built by one of the guys who know how to make them tick.
And you can sleep well at night knowing that nothing is going to come along and "supplant the 6PPC." You're all good. You will ALWAYS be in good shape shooting a 6PPC for short range group.
you're safe
al
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
GG, I'm really enjoying and agreeing with what you are posting.
I can't comment on "good ol' Al" since I have him blocked out.
I can't comment on "good ol' Al" since I have him blocked out.
Vern
Morethan1waytoskinacat
Your right GG.
I have noticed that certain people who always have an arrogant snide attitude some how always espouse themselves to be resident experts in something they have never participated in. Might not be so bad if it were not for the rude arrogant offensive manner in which they present themselves.
While everyone is entitled to their opinion I find that on this board many times by many people opinions are presented as absolute indisputable fact.
Even setting that aside the thing that wrankles me is the attitude and disrespect with which it is metered out.
We will never all agree about anything but showing mutual respect could go along way toward actually sharing information and learning something.
I think I am with Jerry on the block thing...
I have noticed that certain people who always have an arrogant snide attitude some how always espouse themselves to be resident experts in something they have never participated in. Might not be so bad if it were not for the rude arrogant offensive manner in which they present themselves.
While everyone is entitled to their opinion I find that on this board many times by many people opinions are presented as absolute indisputable fact.
Even setting that aside the thing that wrankles me is the attitude and disrespect with which it is metered out.
We will never all agree about anything but showing mutual respect could go along way toward actually sharing information and learning something.
I think I am with Jerry on the block thing...
Butch Lambert
Active member
No disrespect to anyone, but I read Al's post differently.
Butch
Butch
Boyd Allen
Active member
As to the competitiveness of the .220 Russian, haven't Lou Murdica and George Kelbly shot this caliber. Also, as far as I am aware, the only difference between it and the Beggs is the radius where the neck meets the shoulder, and I believe that this was done to reduce case length growth when shooting hot loads, with no claims made for a difference in accuracy. Or did I get this wrong?
W
wolf gray
Guest
Butch,
You and me both.
Best,
Dan Batko
"Where are we going and why am I in this basket?"
J
j mckinnie
Guest
Chill out (no pun intended LOL)guys its of no real importance.You will be able to make big bang noises shortly if not already.You have definately got the full blown symptoms of CABIN FEVER.Mebe I should have started with warm up.Who cares shoot what works and if you feel the need to reinvent the wheel go ahead and DO IT.This is turning into a rimfire thread.sorry rimfire shooters.Go HUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMM a few times close your eyes and all will be great.jim
C
Cheechako
Guest
Grouper
Re your post about the SMc cartridges, I know Mc and have a couple of their cartridges in my collection. They are certainly unique and their theories behind them makes my brain hurt. I'll readily admit that it is all Greek to me.
The velocities that they get are real but they come at a cost. Short barrel and case life are the result of large dollops of powder and high pressures. The brass is really pounded, some that I have no longer have a readable headstamp.
But, they all have one thing in common. None of them have a track record of winning in competition. Maybe it's because there are so few of them actually being used at matches, but if they are capable of winning it wouldn't take shooters long to find out about them and you'd see them show up on the line.
What's my point? Only that their unique design doesn't necessarily support the theory that certain case sizes and shapes equate to inherent accuracy, or even high velocities. That was the original premise of this thread, as I remember.
Al
You go boy!! You are my hero. You don't need me to stick up for you, but I do.
Ray
Re your post about the SMc cartridges, I know Mc and have a couple of their cartridges in my collection. They are certainly unique and their theories behind them makes my brain hurt. I'll readily admit that it is all Greek to me.
The velocities that they get are real but they come at a cost. Short barrel and case life are the result of large dollops of powder and high pressures. The brass is really pounded, some that I have no longer have a readable headstamp.
But, they all have one thing in common. None of them have a track record of winning in competition. Maybe it's because there are so few of them actually being used at matches, but if they are capable of winning it wouldn't take shooters long to find out about them and you'd see them show up on the line.
What's my point? Only that their unique design doesn't necessarily support the theory that certain case sizes and shapes equate to inherent accuracy, or even high velocities. That was the original premise of this thread, as I remember.
Al
You go boy!! You are my hero. You don't need me to stick up for you, but I do.
Ray
C
Cheechako
Guest
Grouper
I don't think that I ever said that case shape had anything to do with the accuracy of the PPC, one way or the other. And, I didn't say that the case shape of the SMc had anything to do with it either. (If I did, I take it back) I'm of the opinion that almost any case shape can be made to shoot. Just look at the 30 Aardvark. Some may be easier to tune than others, it all depends how much time you want to spend tuning vs. shooting.
The SMc certainly can boast of velocity. But, I'm of the opinion that it has to do with how much powder and pressure you're willing to tolerate in a case of a given capacity. Go to a bigger case and you can duplicate SMc velocities, or exceed them, with lower pressure. In the end, you can accellerate a bullet only so far as Mother nature will allow. That's simple physics.
I'm not here to bad-mouth either S or Mc. They are smart guys, they enjoy what they are doing, and it's interesting to read about their experiments. But, I can say the same about P.O. and some of his stuff, like the Eargesplittenloudenboomer and Double Shoulder Magnum. SMc are a little more serious.
Ray
I don't think that I ever said that case shape had anything to do with the accuracy of the PPC, one way or the other. And, I didn't say that the case shape of the SMc had anything to do with it either. (If I did, I take it back
) I'm of the opinion that almost any case shape can be made to shoot. Just look at the 30 Aardvark. Some may be easier to tune than others, it all depends how much time you want to spend tuning vs. shooting.The SMc certainly can boast of velocity. But, I'm of the opinion that it has to do with how much powder and pressure you're willing to tolerate in a case of a given capacity. Go to a bigger case and you can duplicate SMc velocities, or exceed them, with lower pressure. In the end, you can accellerate a bullet only so far as Mother nature will allow. That's simple physics.
I'm not here to bad-mouth either S or Mc. They are smart guys, they enjoy what they are doing, and it's interesting to read about their experiments. But, I can say the same about P.O. and some of his stuff, like the Eargesplittenloudenboomer and Double Shoulder Magnum. SMc are a little more serious.
Ray
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...........................WOW, was that wrong! Wasted some hard earned cash following advice from folks who never should have posted in the first place! Sometimes it's hard for me to realize that a lot of people are not as inhibited as I was. So I guess that's why I think this is something that matters.
QUOTE]
OK, the implication is now on the table, bring it on...............
When you can name one thing that I said that led you to spend money unwisely then your view will be relevant, until then your propensity for lumping people into groups is pure small-minded bigotry coupled with hero worship.
One piece of bad information you got from me...... that's all I ask. Otherwise, keep your implications inside your own head.
I feel more strongly than you ever will about this as my posts prove. I've never hidden ANYthing. My guts are out there on the table every day so bring out your "hard-earned money" stories, don't stand back at the rear of the room and mutter under your breath.
al
Ok Goodgrouper, please enlighten me.... seems you're now trying to lay this on ME?
WHO said "WOW, was that wrong! Wasted some hard earned cash following advice from folks who never should have posted in the first place!" in the middle of a thread where you've told me in no uncertain terms that I shouldn't be making statements I'm not qualified to make?
Am I missing something here?
I'M 'personally attacking YOU??"
I guess it's OK for you to judge who should post and who shouldn't???
I mean I'm a gentle guy, am I imagining this?
If so, I apologize...... but do me a favor, go and READ what you've written, from a remove. Better yet, have your wife read it
al
WHO said "WOW, was that wrong! Wasted some hard earned cash following advice from folks who never should have posted in the first place!" in the middle of a thread where you've told me in no uncertain terms that I shouldn't be making statements I'm not qualified to make?
Am I missing something here?
I'M 'personally attacking YOU??"
I guess it's OK for you to judge who should post and who shouldn't???
I mean I'm a gentle guy, am I imagining this?
If so, I apologize...... but do me a favor, go and READ what you've written, from a remove. Better yet, have your wife read it
al
OK..... this is going to be hard.
I'M GOING TO DISAGREE WITH THE EXAMPLES IN THIS POST..... but please read it without any preconceived ideas regarding the ongoing misunderstanding betwixt myownself and Goodgrouper.
please.
Lots of people read these posts (maybe more when things wreckaliddle...) but I think it's important to say that THE 243WSSM IS A MESS!!! I mean a MESS. It's a poorly conceived cartridge that exemplifies the rule of "just because a little salt adds savor and goodness doesn't mean that a LOT of salt adds a LOT of goodness."
For a while the mantra that the American Buying Public shouted from the rooftops was "short and fat is where it's at." All sorts of goofy stuff floated around (is STILL floating around
) regarding the new "Super Cartridges."And they ARE super cartridges. The 300WSM is a beautiful thing. In fact the WSM's from 270 to 325 are beauteous, even outrageous performers.
But the WSSM's are a different story, they're a mess. TOO short and TOO fat, they simply don't work properly, they broke the rules established a hunnerd years ago regarding length-to-width ratio. In short, the WSSM is TOO SHORT to properly lock to the chamber walls. In fact, they get you coming and going..... They don't feed right going in, but worse yet they don't extract right coming out!
They can't.
They're designed wrong.
So I have to take issue, not exactly with the POINT, but with the choice of cartridge used to illustrate the point.
THEN, I have to take issue with the point!
I SAID this was going to be hard! I also feel that there are some cases which simply CANNOT be made to shoot well. As an example I'll use the 22-250. The 22-250 case, as it stands CANNOT really perform well. It can't be resized properly. It'll stick every time. The 22-250 that's been improved with a 30-35degree shoulder and blown out to nearly parallel can be made to shoot but the original case has some problems. (notice I din't even MENTION the Aardvark!!
but this chambering was specifically designed with this in mind....and it works, WELL, provided all the rules are followed )And there are cases which are too large for their pressure capacity..... And cases like the 22 Hornet which are too small.... it is my opinion that case design DOES affect accuracy to an extent. In the big picture. I spent YEARS with the 243AI, many barrels and reamers and dies and I do not believe it can be made to shoot competitively. It was competitive back when I bought my first one as a comp rifle but it proved to have some problems and has been surpassed in the interim. In my opinion a .243 bone stock or even shortened is a better option than the .243AI.
On the subject of case design, I set out in about '89-'90 or thereabouts to PROVE that other cartridges could "shoot with the PPC" given the rifles were built to benchrest standards. So I spent the money.... I had rifles built with PPC barrels as a benchmark and as many as 7 other chamberings to go with it.
I found I was WRONG....
MANY thousands of dollars wrong.
But this didn't make me completely happy....
So I started over, this time following the PPC build step-by-step and choosing cartridges that were at least 'similar' in shape.
I got short-fat low BC bullets to shoot perty darn good. Nearly as good as the PPC.... but I'd been bitten by the BC bug too. So now my focus changed. I spent the next few years trying to make high BC bullets shoot.....another set of problems... and somewhere in the middle of this odyssey it started clicking. I got the 6BR to push 105-108gr bullets into 1/4moa. This was a breakthrough for me. I remember a phone call I got about the year 2000 or 2001. Paul from over on the then new 6mmBR.com site called me at home and asked me an honest question. "Are you blowing smoke over there on BRC or do you REALLY think you can make a 6BR agg .250 with big bullets."
I LOVE this sort of question!!
Honest and to the point....with just a hint of "you're full of it.
"But, as has been now proven by many (nor am I claiming to be the first) it IS possible. Providing the rules established first by the PPC are followed to the letter. Just building a straight rifle won't get 'er done.... nor will those long bullets shoot into a tenth inch as the PPC must, but a new standard was set. The older chamberings, the record-setting chamberings from the days of yore, are being supplanted by newer and more efficient chamberings. AND, as a side-note, I finally learned how to make other chamberings "shoot like a PPC." Yes, some will. Not all cartridge cases are equal but there are other cases that will shoot with the PPC, spec'd properly. This spec'ing and matching of parts is intrinsic to the accuracy equation. "Fitted FL dies" have become the norm. Proper brass FIT and maintenance is key to the equation. Fireforming PROPERLY is key to the equation (this incidentally is the basis for, the root cause of, may I say the DRIVING FORCE BEHIND the Aardvark cartridge) and then maintaining this fit....
Messrs Dowling and (I forget hisnamestartswithan'A') the driving force behind the original DAsher (which incidentally is a .22) understood this fireforming thing. The original DAsher is an inspired cartridge. Take a 6BR case, neck it to .22 leaving a crush-fit headspacing ring and voilaahhh!!! An absolutely screaming accurate varmint round! Too overbore for BR accuracy but the reasoning is sound. The key is the headspacing step.
couple of other notes......
-rarely are PPC's loaded to single digit ES, it's certainly no common among high-end competition shooters, yet....
-and I disagree with the entire notion of the radiused shoulder "Mc" cartridges doing anything that a traditional shoulder won't do, better. but that's another subject entire...
opinionsby
al
Dan H
New member
Yea, this thread started out OK, but as usual it has turned into a hissing contest between the usual couple of people to see who can get the most posts in, or scratches = boring.
Dan Honert
J
j mckinnie
Guest
they havent even started on the different ppc reamers this could go on for a long time.I guess they will eventually decide on who's the Alpha Mail or mebe just continue to eternity and beyond.Beam me up scotty
Yea, this thread started out OK, but as usual it has turned into a hissing contest between the usual couple of people to see who can get the most posts in, or scratches = boring.
I miss Bill Calfee................
Dr. Palmisano gave me a complete history of the development of the PPC cartridges a few years ago. He summarized the PPC as follows: "It took two guys with a dream to design it. It took the finest, brightest young man I ever knew to test it (Dan Pawlak). It took 4,000 Benchresters to prove it. It took two champion U.S. Free Rifle shooters to bring it international fame. And I am grateful to them all......"
Dr. Palmisano found the .220 Russian cartridge and saw the potential. He was told at matches by most that he was barking up the wrong tree and the deuce was king and would remain so. One exception was a shooter from Indiana by the name of Ferris Pindell. Ferris was intrigued with the little case and took it to Indiana with him. After some time he blew it out with a 30 degree shoulder and straighter body. This is the design that we use today.
Dr. Palmisano took the case and had Dan Pawlak run every test possible at his laboratory, and we reap the results of all of their efforts today.
I am not saying that the case is the ultimate, end-all shape, but it is as good as any conceived to date and the record books show that. The .220 Russian has been used by many, including George Kelbly. However, George has now changed to the 6mm PPC. I think that his shooting has improved since the switch. He finished third in the Winds of Manatee this month.
I guess that we will continue these "cabin fever" arguments like our parents did over the camp fire arguing about the merits of the .308 vs .30-06. As for me, I don't want to re-invent the wheel. I will take my 6PPC to matches and be thankful for men like Doc Palmisano and Ferris Pindell.
Dr. Palmisano found the .220 Russian cartridge and saw the potential. He was told at matches by most that he was barking up the wrong tree and the deuce was king and would remain so. One exception was a shooter from Indiana by the name of Ferris Pindell. Ferris was intrigued with the little case and took it to Indiana with him. After some time he blew it out with a 30 degree shoulder and straighter body. This is the design that we use today.
Dr. Palmisano took the case and had Dan Pawlak run every test possible at his laboratory, and we reap the results of all of their efforts today.
I am not saying that the case is the ultimate, end-all shape, but it is as good as any conceived to date and the record books show that. The .220 Russian has been used by many, including George Kelbly. However, George has now changed to the 6mm PPC. I think that his shooting has improved since the switch. He finished third in the Winds of Manatee this month.
I guess that we will continue these "cabin fever" arguments like our parents did over the camp fire arguing about the merits of the .308 vs .30-06. As for me, I don't want to re-invent the wheel. I will take my 6PPC to matches and be thankful for men like Doc Palmisano and Ferris Pindell.