New stuff we are playing with in the F-Class game

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if you are not a member of facebook and I am not then you cannot view the content someone needs to copy and paste here for us who di not "facebook"

Jefferson
 
There are more pics and some commentary, but this is the general idea.

Landy

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Well I guess I don't get this deal at all. The links won't open, I can see the picks, but this looks like another guy just trying to sell his stuff.

Maybe an explanation into what is what, how it is going to help, why should I spend my money on this new gimmick, will it improve the scores of the average F-Class guy? Will it help further F-Class in general? And How?

As to the last picture. This group shot at only 300 yds shows what looks to be quite a bit of Horz. I just bet that there are 2 or 3 dozen guys just on this board that could post pictures of groups shot at 300 Yds that would be at least this size and many that are a "LOT" smaller.

Without some sort of an explanation its just another free ad.

Roland
 
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Well I guess I don't get this deal at all. The links won't open, I can see the picks, but this looks like another guy just trying to sell his stuff.

Maybe an explanation into what is what, how it is going to help, why should I spend my money on this new gimmick, will it improve the scores of the average F-Class guy? Will it help further F-Class in general? And How?

As to the last picture. This group shot at only 300 yds shows what looks to be quite a bit of Horz. I just bet that there are 2 or 3 dozen guys just on this board that could post pictures of groups shot at 300 Yds that would be at least this size and many that are a "LOT" smaller.

Without some sort of an explanation its just another free ad.

Roland

I don't think the group is to bad considering it was shot at Whittington Center near Raton NM. I've shot there and the winds can be really tough. My Facebook worked and have seen all 40 pictures. This is a good piece of work. Looks like it would help control the vertical. Gimmick? Knowing the man that did the work, I don't think so.
 
Dude! Speedy's been hiding so long no one remembers who he is LOL!!!

(Roland, The Speedster DOES pack some cred in BR circles...)

al
 
Hepburn45110, alinwa,

Guy's I am very familiar with who Speedy is, I also realize the work he has done in the shooting circles. I have read as much of his writings I can find and look forward to reading more. I have really enjoyed what he has to say on the 30/06. That is not really the point here, he offers up some --- and I repeat "GIMMICK" without any explanation or discription and says it is "New Stuff". If he would at least tell us the pro's and con's and more than these results, I may very well be next in line to try the thing. But until that happens it's just another Free Ad.

alin, You need to know a man before you start calling him a Dude!!!

I also have shot at Raton, and as a matter of fact shot there every year for several years. I have even shot Raton both the long Range and the BPCRS National and the Creedmoor with a Hepburn as I own three of the things. One is even in 45/110. I also have seen groups certainly as good as this one shot at Raton in the Shuetzen Match held every year during the BPCRS Nationals and run by Dick Trent. Maybe they are shot at only 200 Meters but they are shot offhand, by calibers only a few are keeping alive today. With trajectories like Rainbows.

Raton does have it's days no doubt about it. I remember a day in 2001 when all oif the silhouette animals had to be clamped to the rail, in the 55 MPH gusts, that was on the Tuesday Relays, the folks shooting on Monday and Wednesday had Polly Anna weather both days. So every day at Raton is not a tough day. Wonder which one of those days Speedys group was shot?

Guys I am entitled to an opinion just the same as you are. Because it differs from yours don't make me a Dude or a bad guy.

As I re-read your post Hepburn I can't help but wonder a couple of things. How do you know this is good work? Have you seen it in person and had your hands on it? If you did maybe an explanation from you on how it works would be a good thing. Or do you judge the good work part by a few pictures? Not trying to be a wise a$$ just wondering how you came to the conclusions you did.

Roland
 
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I agree that this looks like it is an infomercial but it is just a follow up on some testing I did in Aug., as well as its relation to an article Dan Lilja did in last months NBRSA Precision Rifleman magazine about barrel length vs. rigidity. I will scan the article and if anyone who does not receive the NBRSA Precision Rifleman magazine would like a copy, you may email me at speedy.godzilla@msn.com and I will be happy to email a copy to you in the evening when I sit down and answer emails.

What led to the the "Isolation" Bedding system was a test we conducted in August of this year as I said earlier. We have noticed and have heard back from competitors about their inability to minimized vertical dispersion at long range even though they have very low standard deviation on their loads. I took a 284 Winchester F-Class rig I had just finished up out to the Whittington Center and developed a load with the customer that delivered sub 1/4 MOA and had a STD deviation of only 3 FPS. While shooting the rifle I became aware of the springboard effect that is typical to most modern F-Class rigs with their long forearm stocks and the 28" plus long barrels. We shot the rig at 1000 yards in relatively calm conditions for Raton, N.M. and though we were able to hold the X-Ring I felt that is was with some difficulty, with some shots being marginal X's almost 10's. I was curious if the stock designs with their long forearms and long heavy barrels might be contributing to some of the vertical manifesting itself on the target?
At lunch we drove back to Trinidad and retrieved my rail gun and replace my PPC barreled action with the Bat chambered in 284 Win. and sighted her in for 1000 yards. Rather than let the rail return to battery every time, we moved it off target and then repositioned it with the windage and elevation controls for each shot to more closely mimic returning a shoulder fired rifle. The conditions at Raton were in our favor that day and remained pretty constant until about 6:00 when evening showers threatened.
We we surprised to find that the vertical in the X-Ring was cut almost in half for three 10 round strings and almost by 3/4 in the on string we fired with the rail returning on its own to establish a benchmark for comparison.
What the rail did was establish a more rigid platform and in a sense shorten the barrel by about 6" making it more rigid as well. Two days later I received my Precision Rifleman magazine and low and behold there is an article by Dan Lilja writing about what we had just tested and confirming some of what we had just tested. The "Gimmick" if you wish to call it that, was simply the results of our tests and the article by Dan to test the theory in actual application and see if there is any validity to building a set-up similar to the physics of a rail that can be employed in a bag gun and further develop long range platforms that are capable of taking advantage of of a cartridges true accuracy potential.
We call this system an "Isolated" bedding system because we wish to isolate the barrel harmonics and heat transfer to the clamping pillars through the use of polymer inserts machined to fit the barrel and clamps within 0.0005. Seeing how the clamping pillars are made from 7050 T-7 aluminum and aluminum has 2 1/2 time the expansion ratio of steel we did not wish to transfer heat to the system and have it move or shift on us mid string.
The stock is a Robertson FX-1000 of my design that can be purchased through Jerry Stiller at viperactions.com , it is of carbon fiber / fiber glass design with a rigid foam core. I now T-Slot a 1/8" carbon fiber sheet into the forward tunnel of the stock and then add one or two vertical members to the inside of the stock forming a T or an H depending if the barrel has taper or is a straight cylinder. The action is completely free floated which would allow shooters to use one stock and multiple barrel and action configurations.
I will continue to post as we do more testing.

Speedy Gonzalez
 
Hepburn45110, alinwa,

Guy's I am very familiar with who Speedy is, I also realize the work he has done in the shooting circles. I have read as much of his writings I can find and look forward to reading more. I have really enjoyed what he has to say on the 30/06. That is not really the point here, he offers up some --- and I repeat "GIMMICK" without any explanation or discription and says it is "New Stuff". If he would at least tell us the pro's and con's and more than these results, I may very well be next in line to try the thing. But until that happens it's just another Free Ad.

alin, You need to know a man before you start calling him a Dude!!!

I also have shot at Raton, and as a matter of fact shot there every year for several years. I have even shot Raton both the long Range and the BPCRS National and the Creedmoor with a Hepburn as I own three of the things. One is even in 45/110. I also have seen groups certainly as good as this one shot at Raton in the Shuetzen Match held every year during the BPCRS Nationals and run by Dick Trent. Maybe they are shot at only 200 Meters but they are shot offhand, by calibers only a few are keeping alive today. With trajectories like Rainbows.

Raton does have it's days no doubt about it. I remember a day in 2001 when all oif the silhouette animals had to be clamped to the rail, in the 55 MPH gusts, that was on the Tuesday Relays, the folks shooting on Monday and Wednesday had Polly Anna weather both days. So every day at Raton is not a tough day. Wonder which one of those days Speedys group was shot?

Guys I am entitled to an opinion just the same as you are. Because it differs from yours don't make me a Dude or a bad guy.

As I re-read your post Hepburn I can't help but wonder a couple of things. How do you know this is good work? Have you seen it in person and had your hands on it? If you did maybe an explanation from you on how it works would be a good thing. Or do you judge the good work part by a few pictures? Not trying to be a wise a$$ just wondering how you came to the conclusions you did.

Roland

Read better, it'll help your blood pressure
 
Roland,

I confess I don't precisely understand how Speedy's done things -- limited intelligence on my part, coupled with old age, no doubt (& no Facebook access) -- but I will say I've done a bit of testing too, and had at least similar conclusions.

My work has taken a different path, but with the same end -- to "isolate" the barrel -- particularly the muzzle -- from everything else going on. And it is important that wherever the muzzle points, so too does the scope.

If I understand him correctly -- again, he'd have to say -- this phenomena of the stock raises it's ugly head in all manner of ways, including bag hardness with point-blank BR. Vibration, hell. What we're talking about is closer to *bounce*. Hence a softer bag works better -- or a hard, thin bag that rides on something soft. Best would be to just isolate the barrel from the stock.

With a point-blank rifle BR rifle, by the rules, any form of barrel block may extend only 4 inches in front of the boltface at it's front-most point. Effectively limits you to a 3-inch block (barrel tenon plus a smidgen of clearance). Not true for long range BR, or, apparently, F-class.

For me, a well-designed barrel block, with the scope mounted on a base affixed only to the block, is worth about .020 over a three-gun agg in a point-blank BR rifle (my design, his may be better). And if there are any scope issues with the barrel/action joint, the scope on the barrel block eliminates them. As Harold Vaughn said (paraphrasing) "there are always issues with the barrel/action joint" with common current designs.

* * *

Probably unrelated to the specifics of what Speedy's working on, but in the general area of keeping the muzzle "isolated" ...

The carriage of my point-blank rail (in pieces just now) only weighs 25 pounds, so it is not immune from bounce between the delrin balls on the base and the steel v-blocks on the carriage. But the 80-pound 1,000 yard HG is (which, by the rules, has to ride in sand). Flat-out mass *is* one way, but terribly inconvenient.

One of the pluses to 1K benchrest -- and it would appear F-class -- is the absence of some really stupid rules found in the point-blank game.

Well, I've rambled overmuch, but my gut feeling is Roland is one of the good guys, even though I don't know him well enough to call him "dude." That's my excuse, anyway,

Charles

Edit: As Bill Shehane found out -- the hard way -- with the two-ring design, if there is any heat difference between the from & rear ring, you'll get vertical. IIRC, Bill used two separate barrel rings; Spedy's bottom piece should help keep the heat even. Hopefully enough. And Bill was using a .338 with a 40-inch barrel. A lot of heat, and a long lever.
 
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So... The difference between Speedy's "Isolator" and a "Normal" BBL block is what ? Smaller/ Lighter/ Polymer Inserts/5pc block setup VS 1 or 2 pc. ? Help me out here guys I think I missed something.
 
I didn't "call Roland dude."

"Dude!" is an expression.... like "Dude, did you see THAT???"

Or as in, "Dude! Speedy's been hiding so long..."

The second line is to Roland...... That's why it starts with "Roland."

al
 
A couple of comments:

I think that the characteristics of the material used to line the rings are significant. It can be machined to close tolerances, and good "traction" without deformation problems, and may make a significant contribution to damping, as well as forming an effective thermal barrier.

From my conversation with Speedy I learned that another, more common material was tried but deformed excessively under clamping pressure.

The other part of the system that is only partially visible is the reinforcement with carbon fiber sheet. I think that this modification is significant, particularly when combined with the significant shortening of the cantilevered length of the forend.

The same thing, but to a lesser degree applies to shortening of cantilevered portion of the barrel.

While this approach to bedding is not entirely new, I think that this version will be interesting to watch to see how theory proves out in practice.

As to the group, I assumed that is is a "weather report" and that the vertical dimension is the reason for its being included. As I understand it, the minimizing of vertical in long range groups is of major concern, and if this method proves to be effective in making rifles less sensitive to other variables that contribute to the problem, the system may come into wider use. Time will tell.

Personally, I have always liked hearing about new refinements early on in their development, and following their success or failure. I am aware that there are a significant number of shooters, who take less delight in these sorts of thing, only wishing to be be bothered with what has finally proven to be a success. A good deal of this is probably due to the amount of time, effort and prioritization that are required to mount as serious effort in competition.
 
Speedy told me, and I thought that I wrote it down correctly, but I couldn't find anything on line under that name. I guess you will have to ask him, or perhaps he wants to keep it as a trade secret.
 
No secret: We needed a bushing material that would not soften or creep as the temperatures rose inside the clamping pillars. This would prevent the material from softening and change the torque setting on the clamping bolts. The material that was once know as a member of the "Super Plastics" family that proved best for this application was as follows:

http://www.hycompinc.com/PDFs/Torlon Design Manual.pdf

TORLON PAI:
With its versatile performance capabilities and proven use in a broad range of applications, Torlon polyamide-imide (PAI) shapes are offered in extruded, injection molded, and compression molded grades.

Torlon PAI is the highest performing, melt processable plastic. It has superior resistance to elevated temperatures. It is capable of performing under severe stress conditions at continuous temperatures to 500°F (260°C). Parts machined from Torlon stock shapes provide greater compressive strength and higher impact resistance than most advanced engineering plastics.

Torlon PAI’s extremely low coefficient of linear thermal expansion and high creep resistance deliver excellent dimensional stability over its entire service range (see Figure 23). Torlon PAI is an amorphous material with a Tg (glass transition temperature) of 537°F (280°C).

For large shapes or custom geometries like tubular bar, compression molded Torlon PAI shapes offer designers the greatest economy and flexibility. Another benefit of selecting a compression molded grade is that resins are cured, or “imidized” prior to molding which eliminates the need to post-cure shapes or parts fabricated from compression molded shapes.
 
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