New guy Hello and questions

J

JFS737

New member
Hi all,

I'm a lurker and on Yellow and GTA forums along with some others. I am living in Maryland and have been shooting AG for about 6 or 8 years, mostly with my Gamo CFX .177 (quite accurate really, but presently broke spring) and now a new to me .22 Marauder. Hello to everyone.

While trying to make my .22 shoot well consistently, I've read a benchrest book and most everything on the forums about accuracy and much benchrest stuff. I have tried much to get it to shoot and have had mixed results. My first thought was to find the best pellet and then set the shot strings up. In doing so I essentially became a benchrest guy in a way. I have about 3000 rounds through that gun now and still not where I want it!

I've had fun and frustration along the way. Bottom line, it shoots JSB 18.1 and Barracuda match the best and it will shoot groups smaller than .3" CTC and as large as 1.3" CTC at 50 yards in calm conditions (5 shot). The groups are usually 3 or 4 in one hole then a random shot opening up an otherwise happy group to around .7 or .9 average and sometimes higher. I have done many things to get this gun shooting more consistently. I can see the potential accuracy in this gun but cannot stomp out the "flier" in each group if you will.

I've tried different scopes, taped up the ocular in both, changed rings, cleaned and tightened everything, polished the barrel, swapped barrels, polished crowns and inleeds, weighed and lubed pellets, tried different head sizes, different rests and shooting bags, grips and holds, adjusted the trigger, chrony'd the strings, removed the shroud and baffles and more. Basically it shoots really well.... sometimes.

My question is this... what should I expect for consistency? I am averaging with 5, five shot groups in calm conditions anywhere from .45 to .9". Now I'd be fine with .5 or even .6 if it were consistent, but one day it's .48 and the next it's .9?! I am not happy with this large spread of performance.

So... What is possible at 50 yards? What will a top grade 5, five shot groups gun do on a calm day locked in a notional vice? What is it capable of in terms of average CTC at 50 yards for any 5 groups?

Also, do you think my Marauder is "OK" at basically grouping .3 to 1.3"? Basically if it averages .6" I'm happy, but there is more than one way to do it. .5, .6 and .7 would be great. Groups like .2, .6 and 1.0 make me less happy.

Thanks for hearing all this out and for any thoughts.

Regards,
John
 
Sounds like you are right in the middle of the part that can be the most frustrating, but also the most fun. From what I've seen of .22 Marauders, yours is one of the better ones, but maybe not best. They don't have a reputation for match accuracy, but do have enough for basic hunting.

The gun itself isn't a bad platform, but the .22 barrels from Crosman are good enough for the intent of the gun, but not really match level. I would say a gun like that with a pretty decent and well-fitted .22 Lothar Walther barrel should be expected to deliver around a half inch ctc or maybe a teeny bit better for say the average of ten five shot groups. The best .22 airgun barrels I've seen can deliver just over 1/4" ctc for ten five shot groups under near-perfect conditions, with some under 1/16" but its pretty rare to see such conditions for long enough to fire ten groups. A switch to .177 might be better if you want to stick with inexpensive Crosman barrels, as they tend to be a bit better I think.

The .25 cal Marauders seem to be the best for long range accuracy ... mine could shoot 7/16" consistently pretty much right out of the box ... but the problem was it just used too much air to get many shots. Also, our club doesn't shoot .25 in competition.
 
I went through the same with my .22 Marauder.Last summer installed a LW barrel from Jim Gaska.Much better accuracy and consistency.Also hard to get enough good shots
in .22 so I installed HDD,and tube ext.Now get 40+ and am considering reg. regards,mark
 
John,
Are you shooting over wind flags? Even though you think the conditions are calm, there is almost always some wind, somewhere down range. It doesn't take much wind to move one pellet out of a nice group, especially at 50 yards! You don't need top of the line flags for what you are doing. Something as simple as a broomstick or dowel stuck in the ground with a length of surveyors tape nailed loosely in the end will give you some idea of whats going on out there.
Good luck!
Todd Banks
 
Welcome John,

Like LD said, your Marauder sounds like a pretty good one, and maybe better than we all think, since I didn't hear you say anything about weighing your pellets... And like Todd said, if you're not using flags, then you are really doing great already! An indoor range, even if it's only 25 yards, will tell you a lot more..

Wayne Burns,
Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
 
Great info, Thanks

Thanks to all,

this is really the info I needed. It seems my gun is "pretty good" but might be a little inconsistent. It may be due to a barrel that's not the best or maybe it's that I need some wind flags.

It seems that if I clean the barrel it shoots a tiny bit better but if I polish the barrel it shoots really well. The thing is, I don't want to have to polish the barrel for it to shoot well, and it only last about 100 rounds. I'll try some flags and regular cleaning. I suppose I'll need to start thinking of a new barrel or maybe a new gun. If I'm going to spend $200 on a LW barrel, then I'd have roughly $600 into this gun, maybe a bit more with the spare barrel and a few other parts I've bought. For that, I might be able to get a AA S410 or FX Whisper used (gun must be quiet for shooting on my land). I'll think about .177 but really want this gun for varmint control, plinking and shooting groups and 25 meter targets... guess I want it all! I don't mind tinkering but would like to get results eventually.

What kind of guns can shoot 1/4" groups at 50 yards? Are they the high end FT guns, EV2 and USFT types? Thanks so much for all the info, I'll be reading here and will let you know if I make any progress. I'm having fun trying but hope for some bit of consistency.

Take care,
John
 
It occurs to me you may not be using lubed pellets. I find Krytech lube extends intervals between cleaning, and with some pellet types, actually improves accuracy even from a clean barrel. Don't quit on that gun just yet!
 
Krytech

I do have some Krytech. I've tried it on the Barracuda match and the 18.1 JSB because they are the best pellets I have. I have shot a group under .35 with lubed pells, but then same as the non lubed stuff I've shot 1+ inch groups with them right after or in the same session (generally fliers but occasionally bad groups).

I like the idea of lube keeping my barrel cleaner though, as it seems my most reliable treatment is a very thorough and time consuming polish or cleaning with a nylon brush and patches as well as my bore snake and felt pellets. It may make my need to clean a bit less frequent.

I haven't given up on this barrel, as I see amazing things from it (after a polish in general). I get many, many 4+1 groups and if the 1 would behave I'd be seeing great looking aggregates and individual groups. Because of this, I thought it was the pellets or maybe the scope, but I've done most everything I've read online to fix or eliminate these possibilities. Maybe vibration... harmonics? That's my next try. In the end maybe it's me, I'll keep trying.

Thanks for the encouragement.


John
 
John,

In my limited experience (a little over a year now at Bench rest), only the best of the best air guns you listed and I would also include the FWB P70ft will produce 1/4" - 5 shot groups at 50 yards outdoors on a consistent basis.. even indoors that's tough to make happen on a consistent basis. I've had lots of AAs400s and 410s that didn't shoot as well as your Marauder is right now. And my USFTs need the same barrel cleaning and the best pellets to do as well as your doing now with that Marauder.. so for sure, don't be giving up on that rig.. And for sure don't sell it until you have something a lot better, and it's been better for a few months:)

Also, we have been trying some different barrels on some of the Marauders we're shooting here. We've seen the Crosman barrels shooting as good and even better than the LW now made in the USA.. and seeing how you can buy 4 of the Crosman for the price of one LW (they are only $100, not $200).. the odds of finding a great barrel are much better going through more Crosman.. anyway, that's what we decided.

The one Marauder rifle we just got, to leave unmodified, for the new "Production" class, is currently out shooting the one we've just put the LW barrel on and other mods we're building for the HV class.. so go figure:) ... point being, you could go backwards, and loose how far you are now, by changing barrels

Wayne
 
Thanks Wayne,
this was the crux of my post and you and others are really helping me to get some perspective. I just "feel" this gun is a shooter but can't stomp the fliers. If I could drop the worst shot of each 5 shot group this thing would average less than .4" or .5" ! Nice right? This is of course ridiculous, but I'm just trying to illustrate that it has shown much accuracy potential, it's just the consistency I'm searching for. I have many, many 4 in one hole stories to tell, old story but it tells me there is hope. It's just I'm nearing the end of my wits.

Still, with you and the others here offering advice and perspective it really helps. I will be patient and continue. I was unsure if the gun had hope but now I see it does and this gives me a good deal of peace and I can now continue with more patience and maybe lower standards.

Thanks for all the help, it's really been useful to me in terms of perspective and focus. Great forum and lots of generous advice here!

John
 
Wanyne,drop-ins are $200(Greg Davis,Jim Gaska)hundreds have upgraded myself included cutting grps in half and can now shoot many pellets instead of one.I think there`s
a good reason top guns use Lw barrels(Theoben,FXpre2011,Edgun)much more consistent.John try mntg. level reduces canting error
regards,mark
 
Hi new LW barrels are $110.00 if you can fit it . I have tried a number of PCP looking for a good bench rest rifle . Marauder , AA, FX royal 400, EV2, Rapid MFR, and Dawson . The first 3 wood all ( with some Mod. ) shoot nice little gropes with a flyer or 2 . Group shooting with domed shaped pellets often dos not tell the true story . Try shooting 1 pellet on 25 different targets for the true test of how it shoots . Good luck and keep on shooting . In the NE we have air rifle bench rest in Salem NY, eastern Mass., and southern NH . The East cost regional well be held in Salem NY this summer . Rick
 
Another test

I cleaned the barrel well and went indoors a week or two ago. I got 12 groups of 5 with Barracuda Match to average .256" CTC. I am pretty happy with this as most of them were .2 to .3" indicating fewer fliers (lower Standard deviation in the groups). The large was .46 (not good) and two small groups were .15". If you remove the large group, the next one down was .35 then .30... so 9 groups out of 12 below .3". I am pretty happy with this in terms of consistency. At 50 it's naturally more spread out, but it's the consistency that I'm chasing. I'll keep you updated on my next couple tries (will clean barrel well, but not polish, and may experiment with a vibration damper)

I do have a scope level and have sorted the pellets with a .02 gn scale into small groups. I have lubed and non lubed and sometimes will shoot unsorted as well. Mixed results but I'll keep tweaking... I can feel the consistency in there as many groups are 4 in one hole. I would spend $110 for a barrel but I don't know the cost to machine it... probably about that much as Jim Gaska sold some for $200 or so. I still feel this barrel may prove out. I also have another new one as well which I may polish and throw on the gun... 3000 more pellets going downrange!!

Thanks all!


John
 
John,
You've just confirmed that you need to get or build yourself some wind flags for outdoor shooting.
 
John, If you are looking to build a super gun go with the experts! I would stick with LD's info. He knows everything......AND we have never seen him wrong.
 
John,

Having fun with what you are doing is a good thing, chasing accuracy and consistency in a rifle will be frustrating and never ending. You feel the rifle has more in it, knowing the complete package is sound will determine if that is true or not. Accepting and knowing what one's limitations is important, there are a lot of "if only s."

Welcome aboard, you are doing great, stay persistent and enjoy.

Regards,
Joe
 
Wow guys,
so much great and pertinent feedback. I'll be getting some flags and will keep at it, winter allowing. I need to be systematic and also look more closely at my own part in this flier problem. Really appreciate the encouragement and help. I'll update if I can make some headway.

Regards,
John
 
other causes

JFS737 said:
Thanks Wayne,
this was the crux of my post and you and others are really helping me to get some perspective. I just "feel" this gun is a shooter but can't stomp the fliers. If I could drop the worst shot of each 5 shot group this thing would average less than .4" or .5" ! Nice right? This is of course ridiculous, but I'm just trying to illustrate that it has shown much accuracy potential, it's just the consistency I'm searching for. I have many, many 4 in one hole stories to tell, old story but it tells me there is hope. It's just I'm nearing the end of my wits.

Still, with you and the others here offering advice and perspective it really helps. I will be patient and continue. I was unsure if the gun had hope but now I see it does and this gives me a good deal of peace and I can now continue with more patience and maybe lower standards.

Thanks for all the help, it's really been useful to me in terms of perspective and focus. Great forum and lots of generous advice here!

John
Click to expand...
In the old days of gunsmithing, when a gunsmith fixed a rifle, he would test it by firing it 3 times, if it functioned as designed, he would trust his life to the 4th shot. there are many things in 3, 75% as 3out of 4, etc, mathematical probabilities. If the rifle fired 2 good shots then took off, but 4? Considering what I have read about fellas changing barrels and having similar inconsistencies, even worse! Of course the barrel people want to sell barrels, so they are not going to say much.
What if it is not the barrel this time? Some very minor inconsistency in the power transfer to the pellet, some pellet may be more forgiving than others.
I've an issue with my .22, the .25 I have just drills them into one hole, but it does have the HDD installed,(by the way, as it wore I had to remove and reset the height to .439 AND RELIEVE ALL THE PRESSURE FROM THE TOP rear ball bearing screw on top of the receiver, as there is a +taper on the back of the bolt it still closes solid, this was causing me the problem, I had it smooth to the touch, but the camming action of the HDD necessitates the relief by having it loose at the back of the stroke, now she cocks with very nominal extra strength, cleanly ) the .22 does NOT have a HDD in it, and I wonder if the hammer bounce may be causing my inconsistency, I might have time this weekend to remove it and put it in the .22 and see if that may stabilize things.
However I'd rather instal the o-rings inside mod, so will do that 2nd. Now to the heart..when the hammer strikes the valve, what parts inside are moving?, could the valve not be opening cleanly/exactly each time, can it be polished, if the relief valve does not open EXACTLY the same each time, there must be an inconsistency.
This coming spring I will disassemble and take a look inside at the quality of the finish and any possible travel inconsistencies, possibly try a higher/different quality return spring if one is in there.
At this point from what you've said, I just wonder that maybe it is NOT your barrel, nor you, or your other rifles would be doing the same thing.
Have you cronied this pattern? My mind keeps going back to the valve release, the action to release the air and it's actual release. There could be some small things, travel depth of plunger in valve, a slightly +/L valve pin or bur, etc., inconsistent from rifle to rifle, causing one to shoot inconsistent from another, not just the barrel.
That why the HDD and or o-ring mod would help eliminate/diminish some variables, simplify the problem.
For the money, considering your time, I will not hesitate to call Crosman and complain and ask for a second barrel(inspected!), pay for it too, not a big deal really, time is more valuable.
Let me know how it goes. Walt
 
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Weighing for flyers

Hi John,
If you want to eliminate flyers from your tin of Baracudas and/or JSBs, you'll need a jewelers scale. Yes, it's time consuming but affords you the opportunity to shoot groups with the same grain/gram weight. Just toss the light and heavy extremes.
Mike
 
M-rod

Don`t forget to inspect pellets for deformities,I think this is more important than wieghing or rolling.Installing a reg. sure improved my guns accuracy.
Take a dowel and run a couple of pellets through your barrel checking for any distortions or deformities.Taking off my shroud also showed improvement.
I lube w/ballistol.
 
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