Koginam,
I've fired many rifles with excess headspace. There is no "increased recoil" that I've ever noticed and I know of no mechanism for such. I have no good way to empirically measure recoil but it's easy to compute. I've never found reason to measure felt recoil so I don't have a method set up. If reason were provided, I could whip up a simple recoil sled in short order, this would suffice for an experiment as simple as measuring whether or not increased headspace could break a rifle stock. Without a reason though, it's a waste of time.
If you believe that excess headspace was the root of the problems with the aforementioned rifles than I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise but until you can explain HOW too much headspace can do other than DECREASE recoil I'll have to stick by my original posts. THERE IS NO MECHANISM.
I started Gunsmithing School in 1981 at Pine Technical Institute in MN, Charter Member. Headspace was treated as a really major deal. In fact a local gunsmith used to chamber rifles using brass cartridge cases and I used to argue with him about it, citing all sorts of mysterious "problems" and arguing that gauging was the only way to go. I thought he was a hacker, headed for problems....... I didn't know what I was talking about. "Credentials" no longer impress me, only facts and explanations. A LOT of what I learned in schools has since proven to be misguided. In fact, a LOT of what I learned in schools had its root in making things more mysterious than they really are.
I've since made many "wildcats", formed and reformed brass from all sorts and shapes of cases, experimented with necking down and up. I've reset shoulders and necks, blown cases out and reshaped angles and reset clearances for many different cartridges. In the course of this experimentation I've spent a lot of time trying to establish WHY some cartridges shoot better than others and HOW to make brass cases last for many reloadings at high pressure. I've purposely increased headspace to as much as ten thousandths for various experiments, most of them involving fireforming.
IMO the only danger pertaining to excess headspace is the possibility of case head separation. BUT...... head separation of unfired new brass is extremely unlikely. And if the OP will take the time to check the headspace as described the possibility falls to near zero. Old and brittle brass can separate on the first firing provided enough headspace is present. Fired brass can separate because it's been work-hardened by previous firing(s). Brass that's fired multiple times with excess headspace most certainly WILL separate, it's only a matter of time.
But in no case is there a reason for increased recoil. Recoil is governed by Newton's Third Law of Motion. It has nothing to do with cartridge case shape or configuration. Nothing you can do with headspace, shoulder angle or chamber dimensions can change Newton's Laws. The recoil impulse that hits you will always equal the energy of the ejecta, it has to. Unless someone can show me how increased headspace can result in increased recoil I simply cannot accept anecdotal evidence as "fact."
Please understand that there's no "gauntlet" involved....... I'm just trying to pass on accurate information.
I don't take safety implications lightly. I am a Hunter Safety Instructor licensed by the state of WA, which license is reciprocal to every state in the Union.
If you ask me to, I'll actually MEASURE recoil energy from zero headspace to 10 thousandths to the best of my ability. But I'd sure hate to waste the time unless someone can explain WHY
And it takes a substantial change in recoil to break a stock! LOGICALLY, just the difference between the impulse generated by the two calibers you referenced kinda' throws the idea into question doesn't it? Or are you implying that the magnum stock was somehow reinforced differently? I don't remember crossbolts on the mags. Or that due to headspace alone the 30-06 generated substantially more recoil than the 7mm Mag is capable of?
Is it possible that the cracked stocks AND the increased headspace were to result of serious overloads? Those old Parker Hales were probably Mauser or Mark X clones? The old Santa Barbara actions? Double-stepped headspacing or "armourers lugs?"
The 70's era was the heyday of uninformed reloaders trying to get every ft/sec out of their rifles.......
Trying to learn here.....
al
I've fired many rifles with excess headspace. There is no "increased recoil" that I've ever noticed and I know of no mechanism for such. I have no good way to empirically measure recoil but it's easy to compute. I've never found reason to measure felt recoil so I don't have a method set up. If reason were provided, I could whip up a simple recoil sled in short order, this would suffice for an experiment as simple as measuring whether or not increased headspace could break a rifle stock. Without a reason though, it's a waste of time.
If you believe that excess headspace was the root of the problems with the aforementioned rifles than I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise but until you can explain HOW too much headspace can do other than DECREASE recoil I'll have to stick by my original posts. THERE IS NO MECHANISM.
I started Gunsmithing School in 1981 at Pine Technical Institute in MN, Charter Member. Headspace was treated as a really major deal. In fact a local gunsmith used to chamber rifles using brass cartridge cases and I used to argue with him about it, citing all sorts of mysterious "problems" and arguing that gauging was the only way to go. I thought he was a hacker, headed for problems....... I didn't know what I was talking about. "Credentials" no longer impress me, only facts and explanations. A LOT of what I learned in schools has since proven to be misguided. In fact, a LOT of what I learned in schools had its root in making things more mysterious than they really are.
I've since made many "wildcats", formed and reformed brass from all sorts and shapes of cases, experimented with necking down and up. I've reset shoulders and necks, blown cases out and reshaped angles and reset clearances for many different cartridges. In the course of this experimentation I've spent a lot of time trying to establish WHY some cartridges shoot better than others and HOW to make brass cases last for many reloadings at high pressure. I've purposely increased headspace to as much as ten thousandths for various experiments, most of them involving fireforming.
IMO the only danger pertaining to excess headspace is the possibility of case head separation. BUT...... head separation of unfired new brass is extremely unlikely. And if the OP will take the time to check the headspace as described the possibility falls to near zero. Old and brittle brass can separate on the first firing provided enough headspace is present. Fired brass can separate because it's been work-hardened by previous firing(s). Brass that's fired multiple times with excess headspace most certainly WILL separate, it's only a matter of time.
But in no case is there a reason for increased recoil. Recoil is governed by Newton's Third Law of Motion. It has nothing to do with cartridge case shape or configuration. Nothing you can do with headspace, shoulder angle or chamber dimensions can change Newton's Laws. The recoil impulse that hits you will always equal the energy of the ejecta, it has to. Unless someone can show me how increased headspace can result in increased recoil I simply cannot accept anecdotal evidence as "fact."
Please understand that there's no "gauntlet" involved....... I'm just trying to pass on accurate information.
I don't take safety implications lightly. I am a Hunter Safety Instructor licensed by the state of WA, which license is reciprocal to every state in the Union.
If you ask me to, I'll actually MEASURE recoil energy from zero headspace to 10 thousandths to the best of my ability. But I'd sure hate to waste the time unless someone can explain WHY
And it takes a substantial change in recoil to break a stock! LOGICALLY, just the difference between the impulse generated by the two calibers you referenced kinda' throws the idea into question doesn't it? Or are you implying that the magnum stock was somehow reinforced differently? I don't remember crossbolts on the mags. Or that due to headspace alone the 30-06 generated substantially more recoil than the 7mm Mag is capable of?Is it possible that the cracked stocks AND the increased headspace were to result of serious overloads? Those old Parker Hales were probably Mauser or Mark X clones? The old Santa Barbara actions? Double-stepped headspacing or "armourers lugs?"
The 70's era was the heyday of uninformed reloaders trying to get every ft/sec out of their rifles.......
Trying to learn here.....
al