New bolt & headspacing

T

tantor

Guest
I lost my bolt for my new Savage 12fv .308, two weeks old, shot 15 rounds throught it last Sunday and this thing shoots great. Two groups of 1moa out of those 15. Now comes the bad news. I seem to have lost the bolt already. Called Midway less than an hour ago and ordered a new one, will be here on Friday. My queation is : Do I need to have it head spaced and if so is it easy to do with a Savage? I was told by the guy at Midway and on another forum it was easy to do and shouldn't take a gunsmith long. Is this a quick fix and is gunsmithing needed for this to be done?

I was sick knowing I may not get to shoot over the Christmas weekend now I may be able to.

Thanks all,
Brett
 
My guess is it will likely be within spec but I would check it to be sure. One thing about the Savage, you can adjust the headspace without machining. So Midway sells complete bolts for Savages?
 
tantor,

Let's getcha' a plan eh :)


Here's the deal. You SHOULDA' ordered a $40.00 action wrench when you ordered the bolt, it's worth the forty dollars to do it next chance you get.

Here's one

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=288765

There are others.

BUT, since you can't ADJUST the headspace, you must CHECK it. Judging from your question my guess is that you have no tooling........ Nor no Gauges.......... Nor no Schooling......... nor no fancy-schmancy Measuring Devices of 'NORmous Exactitude...........


AHHHhhhhhh , but you DO! :):):)


Here's what you do. You get some masking tape and a sharp knife, preferably an xacto or razor knife but anything'll work.

Squish a layer of tape onto the casehead covering the lettering. Trim it off round with the knife. Now, in an ideal world you should NOT be able to close the bolt on this round. Or at LEAST you should be feeling tension as you close it.

IF it closes, put on another layer........

Repeat.

ONE layer, tight = GOOD!!!

TWO layers, tight = OK

THREE layers, tight = YOU GOTTA' PROBLEM, post results here.


Gottit???


GOOD :)


post for clarifications.


al
 
Or....
Get some Plastigage, Green .001" -.003" and Red .002"-.006". Put a piece on the bolt face, chamber a fired piece of brass then measure it.. Between the two you'll know exactly what you have. You can go from there.

Bill
 
BillPa said:
Or....
Get some Plastigage, Green .001" -.003" and Red .002"-.006". Put a piece on the bolt face, chamber a fired piece of brass then measure it.. Between the two you'll know exactly what you have. You can go from there.

Bill
Click to expand...


plastigage from a quality auto supply.......

and the tape in question is thin cellophane/scotch////not duct tape

mike in co
 
I have been using plain old masking tape for 40 years ... it compresses to about 3 thou...

Like Al said earlier ... one layer and the bolt does not close is good ... a feel - acceptable.
 
Setting the headspace is the least of your worries. A replacement bolt will not necesarrily drop right in. They are mated to the receivers at the factory.The assembly is inspected when it is assembled to a receiver and checked for fit and function. Replacement bolt assemblies are not inspected, because they are not assigned to any particular receiver. The tolerance of all the parts can stack up and cause too little primary extraction, or too much resulting in "not locking down" because the bolt body maybe too short. Replacement bolt assemblies don't have ejectors installed, because normally they are not installed until after the gun is proofed. Replacement bolt assemblies are not proofed because they have no assigned receiver. So, it may not be as easy as you think, but on the otherhand, you could get lucky:D
 
Factory parts are not all equal...

I would recomend you hand lapp your bolt and reset your headspacing. If you don't understand how to do this then take your rifle to someone who does. It is much easier done on a Savage than a non Barrel nut rifle.
Rustystud
 
I agree with Rustystude you should lap the bolt lugs first then do the headspace using the scotch tape method.
lapping the lugs can be done without special tools like a gunsmith will use.

1) Take a new case without primer and put in a piece of pencil eraser into the primer hole, this puts pressure on the bolt without scratching the bolt face, it should stick out past the case head about 1/16 of an inch. You may have to replace it during the lapping process.
2) Use a marker pen like a sharpie and cover the back of the bolt lugs completely.
3) Put in the case and close the bolt, work the bolt Handel up and down several times and then pull out the bolt and look at the back of the locking lugs.
If there is 3/4 or more of the ink gone you have a good locking surface, if less or if there is more wear on one side you need to lap the lugs.

lapping the lugs is as simple as what we just did, you just add a valve grinding compound, you can buy a three pack from auto supply store, use the finner of the three,to the back of the lugs and repeat step 3, move the handle 10 to 15 times then clean out the chamber and back of the lugs, I use carb cleaner with the little straw nozzle, and repeat step 2. You may have to do it several times to gain full contact on the lugs.
I am not a big fan of using a case to check headspace so I would get a set of go-no-go gages.
Good luck
 
lets address the first issue

WOW Sorry people I have a difficult time thinking tantor can follow any of these steps to lap and headspace a bolt correctly.
here is the issue as i see it, i am 54 and have been hunting since i was 12 and have NEVER misplaced a bolt in my entire life ( not that i believe it is not possible.) However one who can lose 2 bolts in 3 weeks time, :eek:in my opinion, will not be responsible enough to carry every step of these operations thru to exacting completion and have a rifle that will eventually get injured himself or someone else (if he sells said rifle to an unsuspecting buyer) because of incompetency.
maybe i am wrong, maybe i am being abrasive, but from my perception tantor has to man up and be more responsible before i would disiminate any gunsmithing info to this individual.:mad: if i missed anything and am off base here i apoligize for my diatribe and inflamatory remarks. :eek: Fred
 
Fireball Fred??

I don't see where he lost 2 bolts, He said it was a new rifle, 2 weeks old and he lost the bolt. Where did you get the idea he lost 2 bolts?
 
Besides, headspace is no mystery......

Either it's good and it fires.

Or it's not and it doesn't.

Really, taking it further than that seems absurd! Even in the off-chance that he gets a REALLY BAD mismatch all the wrong way, AND ends up with huge headspace, AND gets it to fire......


What then??

What's the "Bad Thing??????"

BTW, IMO lapping the lugs is a total waste of time and will NOT IMO improve accuracy.

GET'cherbolt

CHECK yer headspace

AND HAVE AT IT!!! :):):)


al
 
Thanks Joel

He mentioned losing bolt in 1st and 3rd sentance. I misinterpeted it as losing twice. MY BAD!! :eek:

Tantor, I apoligize for adding to your sorrow. My wish is you have a Merry Christmas.

alinwa is right on with his evaluation of headspace. use his method for checking will save money if headspace is good. if not with the savage platform one only needs a go and no gauge plus barrel wrench to adjust.
 
And don't forget to remove the ejector plunger before you check the "feel" on your quasi headspace guage. I does make a difference in the "feel"
 
Two much headspace can cause case rupture or separation which can cause damage to the chamber and to the shooter. It can also cause excessive recoil, which I have seen first hand crack a stock. Lapping the locking lugs is not just for accuracy, it is also a safety factor, I have seen lugs with only 1/8 of the lug making contact, a hot round could cause problems.
 
Lapping Luggs

So we are to believe that Savage is lapping the luggs?? I doubt it.

I would assume that the luggs on the bolt are machined on the same set-up, and the abutments in the action body are as well. With the floating bolt head that is featured on a Savage, I doubt you can improve them that much.

My only concern would be the headspace. Sure, if it is too much, there is the possibility that a head could separate, but if it is that bad, the Rifle might not even fire. Besides, most head separations occur when a case is subjected to numerous firings where excessive headspace exist. This generally occurs when the shooter is bumping the shoulders back way too much.

That being said, just check it the way everyone said, with a piece of tape, or similiar material, that is about .003 thick.

I have seen out of the box Factory Rifles have as much as .006 over a new unfired case.......jackie
 
koginam said:
Two much headspace can cause case rupture or separation which can cause damage to the chamber and to the shooter. It can also cause excessive recoil, which I have seen first hand crack a stock. Lapping the locking lugs is not just for accuracy, it is also a safety factor, I have seen lugs with only 1/8 of the lug making contact, a hot round could cause problems.
Click to expand...

And a little knowledge is a dangerous thing :rolleyes:

Too much headspace CAN cause a head separation if you've got over 8 thousandths AND ancient age hardened brass. So I'll add this caveat.....

IF you check and the rifle will close on two pieces of tape then PLEASE DON'T FIRE those old green rounds from the box that fell apart in Grampa's garage....

Kogiman, you're gonna' hafta' do better....... HOW can excess headspace "cause excessive recoil"??? Please explain the mechanism....

And I call your bluff, what sort of firearm did you see broken by the excessive recoil generated by excess headspace??

Your implication that factory rifles are dangerous because they may have "only an eighth of a lug bearing" is ludicrous. No, factories don't hand lap their bolts. This DOES NOT make them dangerous! Besides that' it's physically impossible for a SAVAGE to have this condition.

Your implication that we're leading the OP into dangerous waters needs support........but if you can show that I'm giving unsafe advice then please proceed!

al-TheOriginalSafetyGeek-inwa
 
jackie schmidt said:
So we are to believe that Savage is lapping the luggs?? I doubt it.
Click to expand...
Well, kinda, maybe. For a year or so, Hawks Ridge let experienced shooters shoot in Factory class. I had a Savage in .220 Swift that I had rebarreled to .25/06. Since it was a Factory Class, I had to have the factory do it; Customer Service said all such went through their custom shop. In fact, they lapped the lugs.

All in all, they did a good job. The whole process was a bit more expensive than having a gunsmith do the work, and the barrel was rough, as most Savage barrels of the era. But with 110 Fowlers, it was quite competitive at 1K against the usual Factory chamberings -- usually .300 Win mags and 7mm Rem mags.

Then we got sensible & only allowed a competitor in their first two years to shoot "Factory Class."
 
alinwa
I was giving my opinion from my own experience from being a professional gunsmith for 30+ years, I was not throwing down the Gauntlet.
In 1974 I received 4 Parker-Hale rifles in 7mm mag and 30-06 from the JC Penney's store in Anchorage Alaska. All four of them had cracked stocks at the pistol grip or the recoil lug. After inspecting them it was determined that they were all suffering from excessive headspace. We could find no other defect in the rifles or the stocks. All had been returned to the store by different owners. The store had sold over 15 and had an additional 15 in stock, of those none were found to have excessive headspace.
If you don't think excessive headspace affects recoil then I suggest you shot a firearms with excessive headspace and then set the heardspace to 2 to 3 thousands and try it again. you will feel the difference.
The rifle with only 1/8 contact was a Remington model 7, I am sorry if In my last post I gave the impression that I was talking about a savage action having the 1/8 contact.
I was stating my informed opinion and having never had an insurance claim in all my years of business I will stick to it.
 
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