New .6 rule POLL

Bob, we can't go back to the .5 points for a relay win. There are clubs, for good reasons and bad, that shoot 5-man relays. The whole .05 points per people beat has good reason.

Far as that goes, I have no problems extending it to 20-man relays. Yes, you can pick up .95 points, but you have to beat 18 or 19 other people to do it.

I suppose you could hire a bunch of ringers to shoot with you, in a quest for sooty points. Curly, Moe, Abbot and Costello, etc. find 18 of them, then you & your buddy shoot for score & group wins. Aside from that, I can't see the problem.

But apparently it bothers the people who yearn after SOTY points, just the chance that a "fellow competitor" wins one of those big relays gives them gas. And apparently some clubs don't want to follow precedent, only hard, written rules.

That brings up an interesting point. I believe private ranges are private land. Now I guess some cub could require competitors to shoot in the buff. No rule against it, & I believe "decency" is only required by law in public?

Now I would be against that. There are just too many really ugly, fat old men shooting 1K BR. It would affect my concentration because my lunch would be at risk.

I think we may need to come up with a whole list of agenda items for next year.

* * *

BTW, did anyone notice that to win "group" in a relay, you have to beat everybody else. But to win "score," that number is one less -- you don't have to have a better score than the guy who won group. Just another reason to shoot for score...
 
actually there is a good reason not to follow precident.......its not a RULE.
again the behavior of the east coast clubs, the control of the annual meeting, the lack of true representation, the lack of a truely representive national club, are all reasons to only follow the rules......
i really do not understand...you wrote the rules and now someone beats you at your own rules and you cry!




bob.....that is just plain bs....there are few if any that can afford the time and the money to go east for the annual meeting...we have covered that ground.
if the east coast whinners are not man enough to make the club a truely national club then it will continue its slow death.......

you would think that with the embarassing display two years ago at the "other" nationals, that some people would pull thier heads out of thier a**es and try moving forward instead of backwards.

one can only hope...but do not hold your breathe.


mike in co
 
All this bitchin about the IBS and the east coast people, if it is that bad, go back to the NBSRA!!! we didnt have all these problems before! Shannon
 
Charles E said:
Bob, we can't go back to the .5 points for a relay win. There are clubs, for good reasons and bad, that shoot 5-man relays. The whole .05 points per people beat has good reason.

Far as that goes, I have no problems extending it to 20-man relays. Yes, you can pick up .95 points, but you have to beat 18 or 19 other people to do it.

I suppose you could hire a bunch of ringers to shoot with you, in a quest for sooty points. Curly, Moe, Abbot and Costello, etc. find 18 of them, then you & your buddy shoot for score & group wins. Aside from that, I can't see the problem.

But apparently it bothers the people who yearn after SOTY points, just the chance that a "fellow competitor" wins one of those big relays gives them gas. And apparently some clubs don't want to follow precedent, only hard, written rules.

That brings up an interesting point. I believe private ranges are private land. Now I guess some cub could require competitors to shoot in the buff. No rule against it, & I believe "decency" is only required by law in public?

Now I would be against that. There are just too many really ugly, fat old men shooting 1K BR. It would affect my concentration because my lunch would be at risk.

I think we may need to come up with a whole list of agenda items for next year.

* * *

BTW, did anyone notice that to win "group" in a relay, you have to beat everybody else. But to win "score," that number is one less -- you don't have to have a better score than the guy who won group. Just another reason to shoot for score...
Click to expand...

Hi Charles,

I was actually just being a smart ass when I suggested we go back to .5 and 1.0. I've been in the shop turning some metal tonight and just started to laugh. All this nonsense over points for bragging rights for a year. It's just plain silly.

Outside of the discussion over points for relay wins and matches. I wonder if any of the shooters are competing for the shear pleasure of shooting? It would make an interesting thread to ask the question: " Why do you compete?"

I recieved a rather nasty email from one of our shooters tonight. At the end of his rant, he asked me if I ever got serious about shooting? or do I just go to have fun? I responded by saying "I get as serious as a heart attack for a whole 23 seconds, four times in a weekend".

See you on the range Charles.
 
Dear Mike in Colorado:

Last time I looked, you shot a lifetime total of two (maybe three?) 1K matches, several years ago. Recently you put your rifle up for sale. Are we to believe that money problems kept you from shooting, but you still paid your IBS dues during the years you didn't shoot?

And on the off-chance that you did, as I remember, you didn't get any points in the two-three matches you shot. Why are you worring about points?
 
Charles, I'm gonna send Mike a ticket to fly out here and see us. Then he can tells us all his problems in person
 
mike in co said:
actually there is a good reason not to follow precident.......its not a RULE.
again the behavior of the east coast clubs, the control of the annual meeting, the lack of true representation, the lack of a truely representive national club, are all reasons to only follow the rules......
i really do not understand...you wrote the rules and now someone beats you at your own rules and you cry!




bob.....that is just plain bs....there are few if any that can afford the time and the money to go east for the annual meeting...we have covered that ground.
if the east coast whinners are not man enough to make the club a truely national club then it will continue its slow death.......

you would think that with the embarassing display two years ago at the "other" nationals, that some people would pull thier heads out of thier a**es and try moving forward instead of backwards.

one can only hope...but do not hold your breathe.


mike in co
Click to expand...

Good Evening Michael,

I don't understand your post. I didn't personally make any rules but I follow them. Do you want the IBS to hold it's meeting in Denver? Please explain in detail just how the IBS can make you happy. I'm not crying about the rules, Hell I Love the IBS. Where else can a person have this much fun, during the Winter and never leave home. The NRA doesn't give full representation to it's members. Decisions are made by executive commitees, hopefully for the good of the organization as a whole. If you are not happy with them or the organization, use the procedures and existing protocoles to make changes. There is one more solution to your personal agony. Take up Ping Pong.
 
Thank you Shannon!!! I've been waiting for that. Bob I like the way you think.
 
gee three east coast shooters happy the way it is...who would have guessed !!!!

only the second half was pointed to you, bob.

maybe a meeting in kansas city....okcity.....someplace in the middle

the nra sucks. it just another part of our current political problem....they belive in compromise of our constitutional rights...its all about thier next paycheck.

no, i shoot the same way you do..for the personal challenge..period plain and simple.
that does not mean i do not want a club that actually represents the entire sport and its members, not just a few selected clubs.

mike in co
 
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rem300ack said:
All this bitchin about the IBS and the east coast people, if it is that bad, go back to the NBSRA!!! we didnt have all these problems before! Shannon
Click to expand...

Before what? Be careful or you'll make Mike's point.

All these posts involving the matching of wit need to go away.
 
I have not been on this Forum in some time because I no longer shoot Long Range benchrest. I do care about the sport and have made many friends over the years competing in the sport so I would like to offer a outsider view regarding the matter. I have read all the posts and both sides of the argument have merit IMO. The way I see it, On a given day Competitor A shows up at a match with 50 participants and wins the match. On the same day Competitor B shows up at a different match with 50 participants and wins the match. IMO Competitor A & Competitor B should be awarded a very similar number of points for their success on that given day. A shooter should not be rewarded extra or held back due to the number of shooters on a relay or the number of relays which are totally out of the competitors area of control. Now how to accomplish this, It seems the gentlemen's agreement to limit the number of shooters in a relay somewhat accomplishes the goal. I personally can't offer a better solution at the moment. I do not think there is a perfect solution but life in general isn't fair. I think Bob Pastor has the correct perspective. IMO some get way too worked up about a game that really don't mean much in the Grand Scheme, especially for those of us that have a lot more years behind us than in front of us.
 
.6 rule

Fellow competitors,
As it stands now a club that desires not to split relays will be setting precedent for all of us that do not shoot large relay numbers and /or pits. This is totally wrong. The E-board is buying into it because of some misinformation. In case you don’t know, all the clubs that shoot 600 and 1000 yard matches finish their seasons in five weekends ( five single matches for 600 and five double matches for 1000 ) it has been that way for as long as I have been shooting long range 1000 yard matches and that is going on ten years. There will always be losers headed to the pits Gordy, that is the nature of the beast called pits.

Now on to the problem as I see it. First let me say that splitting relays is the way it has been done in the past and worked well for all concerned. The rule change from the old points system as I remember it was due to a club with a very large shooter base getting double points at most of their club matches. That in turn forced the other clubs members to travel in order to have a chance at Shooter of the Year.

If we take a simple twelve man relay and break down the possibility of advancing two shooters this is what I feel could, NO will happen more often than not. I won’t get into what it would do with uneven relays to the points, but that won’t be all that pretty either.
Advance four shooters, split points in half, OK now we have two group winners at .3 each and two score winners at.3 each, the math works.

Now let us see where these winners come from within the 12 man relay:
Best group comes from first bench, next best group comes from second bench, since by rule group takes precedent THEY are the group winners. Next the first best score is on the third bench and the second best score, you guessed it he/she is on the fourth bench, (let’s not even consider what happens if there are ties at this time). The other eight benches are just losers and headed to the pits to pull duty while the first four shoot in the shoot-off. Will this happen every time, of course not, but it will happen often enough it will become a problem before long.

Now to the shoot-off; if we were working under the present proposal we would be having a shoot-off that I feel is being contested between the relay WINNERS and the SECOND PLACE shooters and that to me is not the way the game is supposed to be played. At least not in my book, your book may be different but I have never seen a SECOND PLACE finisher given the status of WINNER. I was always told they were just the FIRST loser. (Military you know.)
Now what I feel needs to be done is this; if you want to make a quick fix and hope all is well and good, then tell the club that is having trouble doing what has been done and will continue to be done by most of clubs, THAT IT IS THE IBS WAY OR IT IS THE HIGHWAY, problem solved and we are back to shooting and having a great time.

Just think, we are starting this season with at least two new clubs and the possibility of an old friend getting started back up. Times are getting better, I have spent my whole life living in Missouri and I haven’t had the ground covered with snow this year yet and two days ago it was in the sixties, and let us not forget yesterday, it hit seventy here on the farm. Today it is supposed to be in the mid-fifties. It doesn’t get better than that for the end of January or the first of February.

Gene
 
Good post Gene.

A little historical correction... As late as 2009, the Carolina cub, which shot at Hawks Ridge for the first 4.5 matches that year, usually shot one match per day. Membership was down in 2008 and 2009; at Carolina -- even at Hawks Ridge -- we had about 55 shooters per match, down from the 70+ of earlier years. That was still enough to make two matches a day very hard, esp. early in the year when there is less daylight.

Until 2000, when Virgina lost the use of Rob Ritchie's farm, Carolina and Virginia were growing at about equal pace. A lot of people at those club's would attend all matches at both clubs. Culpeper Virgina was about 4-5 hours drive from North Wilksboro. In fact, a number of people were members at both clubs.

So, going to more than the 10 matches at your "own" club was always a part of SOTY strategy -- actually, for a number of people, it was simply a matter of just getting in more shooting. When Virginia was forced back to shooting at Quantico, their membership went down; for a couple of years I think it went as low as 20 for some matches (Correct me if I'm wrong on that). Quantico was a longer drive from Carolina, but still possible in a one day trip.

Ohio was the next club, that was about a 6-7 hour drive from Carolina, less from Virginia. Going to all the matches was still on a few people's agenda.

* * *

I remember that in 2005, we were chiding Phillip Yott that the Shooter of the Year was becoming a gas can trophy. Phillip (who was SOTY in 2004) replied that in a number of sports -- racing, tennis, golf, etc. -- a lot of traveling was a part of "best performance of the year." He was right.
 
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here is the problem with your comment
THEY ARE DOING IT THE IBS WAY...LETTER FOR LETTER PER THE RULES.
if you want them to do something else...fix the RULES...dont bandaid the point system...
do not give me "its always been done that way". fix the problem not the symptoms....

mike in co

Gene Ford said:
Fellow competitors,
Now what I feel needs to be done is this; if you want to make a quick fix and hope all is well and good, then tell the club that is having trouble doing what has been done and will continue to be done by most of clubs, THAT IT IS THE IBS WAY OR IT IS THE HIGHWAY, problem solved and we are back to shooting and having a great time.

Gene
Click to expand...
 
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Gene Ford said:
Fellow competitors,
As it stands now a club that desires not to split relays will be setting precedent for all of us that do not shoot large relay numbers and /or pits. This is totally wrong. The E-board is buying into it because of some misinformation. In case you don’t know, all the clubs that shoot 600 and 1000 yard matches finish their seasons in five weekends ( five single matches for 600 and five double matches for 1000 ) it has been that way for as long as I have been shooting long range 1000 yard matches and that is going on ten years. There will always be losers headed to the pits Gordy, that is the nature of the beast called pits.

Now on to the problem as I see it. First let me say that splitting relays is the way it has been done in the past and worked well for all concerned. The rule change from the old points system as I remember it was due to a club with a very large shooter base getting double points at most of their club matches. That in turn forced the other clubs members to travel in order to have a chance at Shooter of the Year.

If we take a simple twelve man relay and break down the possibility of advancing two shooters this is what I feel could, NO will happen more often than not. I won’t get into what it would do with uneven relays to the points, but that won’t be all that pretty either.
Advance four shooters, split points in half, OK now we have two group winners at .3 each and two score winners at.3 each, the math works.

Now let us see where these winners come from within the 12 man relay:
Best group comes from first bench, next best group comes from second bench, since by rule group takes precedent THEY are the group winners. Next the first best score is on the third bench and the second best score, you guessed it he/she is on the fourth bench, (let’s not even consider what happens if there are ties at this time). The other eight benches are just losers and headed to the pits to pull duty while the first four shoot in the shoot-off. Will this happen every time, of course not, but it will happen often enough it will become a problem before long.

Now to the shoot-off; if we were working under the present proposal we would be having a shoot-off that I feel is being contested between the relay WINNERS and the SECOND PLACE shooters and that to me is not the way the game is supposed to be played. At least not in my book, your book may be different but I have never seen a SECOND PLACE finisher given the status of WINNER. I was always told they were just the FIRST loser. (Military you know.)
Now what I feel needs to be done is this; if you want to make a quick fix and hope all is well and good, then tell the club that is having trouble doing what has been done and will continue to be done by most of clubs, THAT IT IS THE IBS WAY OR IT IS THE HIGHWAY, problem solved and we are back to shooting and having a great time.

Just think, we are starting this season with at least two new clubs and the possibility of an old friend getting started back up. Times are getting better, I have spent my whole life living in Missouri and I haven’t had the ground covered with snow this year yet and two days ago it was in the sixties, and let us not forget yesterday, it hit seventy here on the farm. Today it is supposed to be in the mid-fifties. It doesn’t get better than that for the end of January or the first of February.

Gene
Click to expand...
I don't think they are asking to split relays of 12, they are asking to split relays of 20. For reasons of travel cost, and time, they attempt to run 20 man relays to facilitate getting in FOUR matches in a weekend. This way, with a 2 match weekend, and 2 4 match weekends, they can have 3 annual events, and complete a season. Ok, I can buy that and if that works for them, then so be it.

However, there seems to be this idea that splitting relays at bench 10/11 is somehow unfair. A guy in relay one bench 5 does not want to beat a guy on relay 2 bench 15, but not make the shootoff. I'm not saying its right or wrong, that's what they are saying. Personally, if it were me, I'd simply understand that relays vary, and the people you shoot with vary. If I shot at Williamsport and every week I have Matt Kline in my relay, I'd probably want a new system too! To me, the relay is more about who is in it than what bench I am on, but that really matters too. Ok, whatever, I am on bench X and I am shooting againts shooters ABCDEFGH & I. That is how I would think of it. But it's not me. They want to take a 20 man relay, and instead of dividing the relay at benches 10/11, give points to two winners G/S, regardless of the bench they fire from. They are still essentially beating 9 shooters each, and score is the same as it is at any other club. They have it in their mind this is better, it makes not one lick of difference to the other shooters elsewhere from a numbers standpoint. Why not simply say ok, do it, and put this thread to bed.

And just for the record, in spite of what you are hearing from some of the more vocal proponents here, there are some reasonable folks there who are genuinely trying to offer an equitable solution. They may not post here much, and probably should. But the "squeaky wheels" are more than making up for them, even if they don't say a whole lot that is constructive. Which in itself isn't a problem, but the way they are not listening to other suggestions, is.

This is like a union bargaining session... Honestly, either side could concede a little either way and it would probably work out just fine. Now it's to the point where that small concession is more about saving face than it is about honest consideration of the issues.
 
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Points Fix

Charles

You hit the nail on the head with the "GAS CAN TROPHY" for Shooter of the YEAR" award! The out come would be different if the IBS would do away with the points entirely for relay wins.

My suggestion to stop all the bickering about the number of shooters in relays is-NO POINTS for relay wins.KEEP the points for shootoff wins,records broke and Nationals points. This way the cream will still rise to the top.

The SOTY has always been determined by someone with the money.time to shoot at the most ranges,shooting ability,and a couple of good guns. Someone that earns their points by shootoff wins,records set and Nationals placing would without a doubt be the best Shooter of the YEAR!

As it stands now I have the utmost respect for the IBS National Champion or the World Open Champion because you are shooting against the VERY BEST SHOOTERS from all over,with the best equipment that they have saved and tuned to the max just for these once a year shoots. By the way as important the IBS NATIONALS are the IBS website does not list the champions before 2004! A simple call to Tod Soeby and he can read the names off of the plaque for their records.
 
Alvin: Great to see you and Shannon on here voicing your opinion. I've said almost the same thing as you about relays, whats the big deal! no-one wants to address it. I won eight out of ten relays last year at PA. that and $3.00 will get you a beer at the bottom of the hill there. Anyone can get lucky and win one or two. Like you said win a Nationals or world open then I'm impressed. Even a shoot off. I always keep an eye on you guys down south, you have always been a strong competitors.

Joe Salt
 
Joe The points system regarding relay points has been a sore subject from 1995 and will continue from now on unless the powers that be wake up. Like I suggested its a simple fix. Like a dog that chases cars if he caught it a dollar and the car might get him a can of dog food. The same goes for the IBS points,spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to earn a few 10 dollar plaques and a 50 dollar jacket! Relay points has caused enough problems and the new .6 rule only adds fuel to a long burning fire. Do away with the relay points and put the fun factor back in shooting. Shooting is supposed to be fun not a constant fuss!
A few of us IBS shooters have always looked up to the Pennsylvania club,its great shooters and the way your club runs everything that it does. 40+ years of experience goes a long ways! Maybe the IBS could drop the relay points an adopt something like your Hall of Fame system.
 
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