Need shims for 40x bolt

D

Donws2

Guest
Title says it all. Anyone know who might have headspace shims for a 40 XB bolt? I thought one of the more common supply sites would have them but I can't even find anywhere they are listed. Need some help so I'm asking please. Donald
 
Donald, the guy you want to talk to is Joe Cowan, aka Team 40X. He has a web site (don't know how to post web links) you could prolly Google "team 40x" and it should take you there. The second guy you should talk to is Bill Calfee; he says DO NOT do it. I know he wrote an article for PS about this subject, and a few years ago there was a discussion about this here. At the time, Bill was posting under the name of Rob Probst. Do a search here for Rob and also for shim bolt, you'll find the thread.

I don't like it when someone says Google or search for your answer, and I would help more but my computer skills are minimum at best.

Thanks, Douglas
 
Donald
Below is Joe Cowan's Email. I am not sure if he is making the shims anymore.
Be advised that driving out the pins that hold the nose of the bolt is not always easy. Also depending on your bolt you might not be able to add enough shim to make any difference. If I were you I would talk to a Good 40X gunsmith before trying. Head space is not the 'Holy Grail' that makes an accurate rifle.

jcowan1@aasdcat.com
 
Thanks guys.
I went to team 40x. the site is some what weak. No info on the shims.

I know Bill Calfee. Builds a great gun. That said, he'd most likely want to rebarrel the rifle and I will not destroy the collectors value of if. If I use a shim to tighten the gun up a bit I can remove it later as well.

I know what you mean about the pin also. You got to have a starter punch that is hard as hell. once the pin is moving it will come right out.

Donald
 
Douglas said:
Donald, the guy you want to talk to is Joe Cowan, aka Team 40X. He has a web site (don't know how to post web links) you could prolly Google "team 40x" and it should take you there. The second guy you should talk to is Bill Calfee; he says DO NOT do it. I know he wrote an article for PS about this subject, and a few years ago there was a discussion about this here. At the time, Bill was posting under the name of Rob Probst. Do a search here for Rob and also for shim bolt, you'll find the thread.

I don't like it when someone says Google or search for your answer, and I would help more but my computer skills are minimum at best.

Thanks, Douglas
Click to expand...


Douglas is correct, no shims, the proper way to correct your headspace, if you actually have a problem, and want to keep the rifle's collector value, is to have the original barrel re-fit to the proper headspace.

Installing shims is a no-no, especially on a 40-X for a ton of reasons. But it's your rifle and you can screw it up if you wish by trying to install shims, again which is a big no-no.

I sometimes have gunsmith ephiphanies.
 
Look, I've shimed them before. If you us hardened Stainless steel and lub them they work fine. The problem people have is not installing them correctly or not using any lubrication. Oil works but a good grade of WTR greese is much better. And if you think installing a .002 shim will destroy the collectors value then what the hell will cutting the barrel do? You can remove the shim you can't add back barrel metal. To properly reindex the barrel you would have to remove close to .075 to .100 of material on the shouler, reface the breach and recut the extractor groves and recut the chamber. Thats alot of work to correct .002 spacing. And I've done that to. My question is WHO SELLS 40X BOLT SHIMS. Try for once to stay on the subject. Oh, if shiming a 40x is bad then why do the European guns use them?
 
There's no rimfire accuracy rifle on the face of the earth that ever gained accuracy from .002" change in headspace. I thought, the way you sounded that you had a real problem.

Something else. A lot of 40-X breech bolts have the case head recess at .043", which means the headspace could never be tighter that .043" with the bolt nose touching the face of the barrel, which you absolutely never want to do You need .005" or so gap for collecting "garbage", wax, etc.

I'm not a gunsmith, but I have visions sometimes.
 
Your write and I'm wrong. Local machine shop is going to make me some. Donald
 
Glad you found some

Just remember on a 40-X or XP one wants some "play" between the front and rear halves of the bolt. Remember, a 40-X / XP is a vertical lock up action, which kicks the breech bolt up in the rear, when cocked. If the joint is too tight, the bolt face is canted. The action really must relax, a lot, to shoot with some play between the bolt halves, the rear can be kicked up when cocked, and the front half (including the face of the bolt), because of the play, will remain much less canted, which means the action doesn't need to relax as much for accuracy. No, shimming 40-X's is bad business. But that's the great thing about the United States. You can screw you stuff up and nobody can stop you.
 
Donald, we told you who sells the shims, Joe Cowan, I know he sells them because I have a set (unused) from him. I'll dig out the Calfee article and re-read it and get back to you. But as I recall, he says don't do it because it changes the set between the receiver lugs and the bolt, something like that. The reason my shims are unused is because of the Calfee article. A few years ago headspace was thought to be a contributor to accuracy, but I think that theory has since been de-bunked.

I went to the Team 40X web site too, it has changed since I last visited it, you're right, not much there now. It used to be Joe Cowan was running it, I don't know who is doing it now.

I will get back here soon after I read Bill's article.

Thanks, Douglas
 
40x

Don,
Play/no play? Not knowing if you are dealing with a factory matched bolt or not but shims may not help your situation. Remington used to (don't know current) build the 40X with bolt nose contact with the breech of from 3 to 5 lbs of force required to close the bolt. If you note the rear of a factory 40x barrel you will see a .010 contact ring extending out. If you are making contact now it can't get any tighter without machining a little off the ring or the bolt face.

bjm
 
To Beau..

First I'm not saying you are wrong. If you do that in this forum you always p. o. somebody. I'm trying to learn.
I assume what is being discussed here is a rimfire 40x. What is a "vertical lockup " action? Do you mean one with lugs on front of bolt? Why would a bolt with lugs at rear tend to push bolt to top? I think 40x lugs would push it down. Even if it did it would be limited by bolt clearance so the bolt would only move a limited amount regardless of contact at front of bolt.
Again, I'm just trying to understand how you could "cant" the bolt face in a 40x, or any similar action, beyond the normal cant you always get.
 
Pacecil,

There's really no use to rehash it. There's probably been more discussion, on this forum, about the problems associated with vertical lock-up actions using Remington pattern triggers than any other subject,except maybe Calfee's muzzle devices.

I'm sure you could do a search and find enough material to read for a month on the subject.
 
Calfee's article, APR, MAY, JUN, 2005 ARA News, "To Shim or Not to Shim, That is the Question". I'm not going to pretand to be as eloquent or as detailed as Bill, but here goes. Breech bolts/receivers have wear points, front of the bot handle, shoulder on the bolt body and the locking lugs; these parts are hardened so they last a long time, and what happens is a seating process takes place between the two surfaces which becames set for life. If you put a shim, these mating surfaces no longer seat with a even pressure because the shim has disrupted the seating pattern. Now the locking lugs don't bear evenly so all the gains in accuracy you get by by changing headspace are lost now with the un-even locking lug contact, man. Of course, we're assuming improper headspace isn't a safety issue. I hope that's pretty much the gist of it, Bill, I'm sorry if I might have gotten it all wrong. Thanks, Douglas
 
To Beau...

All the stuff previously on bolts being pushed up by the sear would not apply to this thread in which you suggest bolts may be pushed up as you decrease headspace and thus increase lug loading. All I'm asking is why "tightening" the bolt would cause it to use up clearance between bolt and the inside of the receiver. It seems to me if you did something to cause the lugs, as used on a 40x rimfire, to bear harder against each other, you might cause an INCREASE in the bolt clearance at the top.

(I'm just asking. I don't profess to have a masters in benchrest and I'm certainly not trying to confuse Tim and bring him on to this thread!)
 
To Douglas...

This is just a question. I'm not trying to say I know anything more about rimfire actions than you do or have any more experience at benchrest shooting.

I'm having trouble seeing why a shim put in the front part of the bolt would affect the bearing between the lugs. It certainly wouldn't affect bearing on front of bolt lug since there is no contact here. If you put in a shim that caused contact between bolt and barrel this might change the lug contact but other than this I just don't think a shim would have any effect on lug loading.

(Again, here is my disclaimer as to being an expert benchrest shooter. I claim only to being a shooter interested in guns with nowhere near the skill and experience of Tim!)
 
pacecil, i see your over here "shootin the dead", lol. Hey just havin fun. joe :)
 
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