Need New Shooter Advice Please.

M

Muleskinner

Guest
Need help / Advise


“WARNING—Please do not assume I know Anything about benchrest shooting or competition. Even the most minor detail in your advice would be most helpful.”


I am looking into getting a rifle and starting to join in on some benchrest shooting at my local club. I have watched a couple of matches and the amount of cash some of these guys have invested in custom rifles is just beyond my reach at this time. I think my best shot at getting into some “entry level” competition is to purchase a production rifle, and shooting in that class for the next few years while I learn. My club shoot’s 100 and 200 yard benchrest, but I would also like to use this same rifle to sometimes shoot out to 600 yards. With this in mind, I am looking at this rifle…

Savage Model 12 Benchrest Dual Port.

http://www.savagearms.com/12benchrestdp.htm

#1- is this a good choice for me?

#2- Which caliber 6.5 x 284 NORMA, 6 Norma BR, 308 Win ?


I have a good quality front rest and a rear bag, as well as a low quality scope to start out with. I also have a .223 Ruger rifle I have been just experimenting with on my own, but have not been able to get the accuracy I would like to see from it. Also, the 1-12 twist factory bbl keeps me at short distances and will not allow me to use it at the 600 yard line when I want to.

I need some help guys, please give me your honest opinion and remember I have little experience with this so don’t feel like I will be offended if you go back to the basics.

Thank you

Muleskinner
 
Muleskinner said:
Need help / Advise


“WARNING—Please do not assume I know Anything about benchrest shooting or competition. Even the most minor detail in your advice would be most helpful.”


I am looking into getting a rifle and starting to join in on some benchrest shooting at my local club. I have watched a couple of matches and the amount of cash some of these guys have invested in custom rifles is just beyond my reach at this time. I think my best shot at getting into some “entry level” competition is to purchase a production rifle, and shooting in that class for the next few years while I learn. My club shoot’s 100 and 200 yard benchrest, but I would also like to use this same rifle to sometimes shoot out to 600 yards. With this in mind, I am looking at this rifle…

Savage Model 12 Benchrest Dual Port.

http://www.savagearms.com/12benchrestdp.htm

#1- is this a good choice for me?

#2- Which caliber 6.5 x 284 NORMA, 6 Norma BR, 308 Win ?


I have a good quality front rest and a rear bag, as well as a low quality scope to start out with. I also have a .223 Ruger rifle I have been just experimenting with on my own, but have not been able to get the accuracy I would like to see from it. Also, the 1-12 twist factory bbl keeps me at short distances and will not allow me to use it at the 600 yard line when I want to.

I need some help guys, please give me your honest opinion and remember I have little experience with this so don’t feel like I will be offended if you go back to the basics.

Thank you

Muleskinner
Click to expand...

You can pick up a good used Benchrest rifle, for less than the $1375 you will pay for the Savage. In my humble opinion 100/200 yards Benchrest and 600 yard competitions are two different disciplines requiring two different types of rifle and caliber. I think the first thing to do is decide which discipline you want to commit to initially, then go from there. I don't think you can have it both ways if you eventually want to be competitive. If you can, get to a registered 100/200 yard match and a registered 600 yard match and see the type of rifle being shot. I think you come away with a better understanding of the differences involved. Ask a lot of questions while you're there.:)
 
Lets start with. Where are you located? and see what is in your "area" in the way of events.
 
I'll throw in another vote for a used BR rifle...... it won't even COMPARE to the Savage! They are like night and day, and by the time you get the Savage "fixed" you'll have spent 'WAYYY more money.

Get a used BR gun with a .473 boltface (.308/30-06/.257 families of cartridges) and you'll be ecstatic with the results. And in future you can add barrels as needed. I've got BR rifles which are truly competitive across a broad range of disciplines.

The others are right, there is no "universal chambering" because it's larger than that. The 6BR or .308 will compete in many disciplines BUT you still need different barrel twist rates designed for different bullet weights/styles.

If I were you I'd be looking for a good Rem700 in a 10lb HBR configuration which you could then modify for Group, F-Class or 600yd shooting. The modifications are easy, you can do them yourself. I have one of these. It's got a McMillan "Hunter" stock with an aluminum 3"-wide forend plate and a lower "rail" for the rear and will compete in all of the major disciplines. I've got 7 different barrels and 2 scopes all inset into a large guncase...... but I've had it for 18yrs....

Or just pick a style, but in any case I'll strongly side with those who suggest a used BR rifle over a new Savage (or any other factory rifle)

al
 
Forget the Savage. Don't get me wrong. I have at least 5 Savage actions and I have no idea how many barrels. But none of them will get you where you want to go. No one rifle will do what you want. You will have to make a decision which discipline you want to shoot and then go that way. The 6BR would be a fair choice, but odds are, you won't win any point blank matches with it either.

Shooters Corner or the classifieds here would be a good place to start. If you are patient you can get a good, used benchrest rifle with a custom action within your budget. I've bought two over the past two winters for around $1,000 ea. Both have decent barrels and good triggers as well as good stocks. Spend a lot of time here, read a lot and decide which direction you want to go. In the long run, the Savage will cost you more and give you less (and this is from a Savage lover).

Rick
 
Muley -- I'm responding because I recently bought the very rifle you ask about, the same Savage in 6.5 - 284. I'm now shooting only for myself, no competition, and wanting to mess with 600 yards after a lot of time, years ago, with a wonderful 6PPC and 100 yard competition. I'm still working up loads and breaking in the Savage, and it will probably end up shooting .5" MOA -- maybe better -- out of the box. Re-barrelling down the road will help a lot. But here's the dilemna, in my book: you need to learn so much about shooting, load development, wind, finding the right tools -- all that stuff. That process is full of little tweaks that all add up to make a big difference in your groups or your score. If you have a rifle that doesn't accurately reflect those little differences as you try them out, you'll never really know what helps and what doesn't. If the best the rifle can do is .5 or .33 MOA, all of your tuning attempts won't tell you much. I'm reluctant to agree that you need a better rifle, but I think a better rifle will take you farther, faster. My suggestion is to find a good used rifle intended for the range or competition that interests you, and get a good scope to go with it as soon as you can. The Savage is fun, but it won't take you where you want to go. IMHO.
Jim
 
jbarkervt said:
Muley -- I'm responding because I recently bought the very rifle you ask about, the same Savage in 6.5 - 284. I'm now shooting only for myself, no competition, and wanting to mess with 600 yards after a lot of time, years ago, with a wonderful 6PPC and 100 yard competition. I'm still working up loads and breaking in the Savage, and it will probably end up shooting .5" MOA -- maybe better -- out of the box. Re-barrelling down the road will help a lot. But here's the dilemna, in my book: you need to learn so much about shooting, load development, wind, finding the right tools -- all that stuff. That process is full of little tweaks that all add up to make a big difference in your groups or your score. If you have a rifle that doesn't accurately reflect those little differences as you try them out, you'll never really know what helps and what doesn't. If the best the rifle can do is .5 or .33 MOA, all of your tuning attempts won't tell you much. I'm reluctant to agree that you need a better rifle, but I think a better rifle will take you farther, faster. My suggestion is to find a good used rifle intended for the range or competition that interests you, and get a good scope to go with it as soon as you can. The Savage is fun, but it won't take you where you want to go. IMHO.
Jim
Click to expand...

WOW :)


"If you have a rifle that doesn't accurately reflect those little differences as you try them out, you'll never really know what helps and what doesn't."

I can't agree with this more!

Well said

al
 
New shooter advice

My first advice is to spend some time at a match, and meet some people. One thing you will find, is that the benchrest crowd is among the finest group of people you will ever meet. Period! Someone is likely to take you under their wing and show you what you need. Someone may even offer to loan you a spare rifle.
You will not likely get where you want to go with a factory Savage, like others have suggested, a used BR rig may be the way to go.

If you are not a reloader, get started now. Have a br shooter help you. There is soooooo much to learn. Buy benchrest match bullets, most br shooters load at the matches, that is a spendy venture just getting equipment suitable for portable loading. Your 223 may be capable of great accuracy. Spend some time with the rifle you currently own. Trigger time is precious! I would start there. Unfortunately this is an expensive game, be prepared to spend the money, but get an education, and spend it wisely.
Hope that helps.
Jeff
 
I initially thought you might like the Remington XR-100. Mine shoots 2MOA at 100 y ards right out of the box. But you'd be limited to 22-250, .223 or .204 Ruger and those may not be the calibers you're interested in, especially if you want to use the same rifle for 600 yards. But the XR-100 in .223 weighs in at just over 9 pounds (sans scope) so it may fit into your general varmint competition plans and, by the time you've been sucked deep enough into the benchrest competition vortex, you may be ready to increase your rifle collection to include something like the .308 Savage F-Class.
 
Muleskinner,
Having recently started in the shortrange game myself, and soaking in a lot of good advice prior to taking that first step I can tell you that the above posts are right on. A proven used BR rifle will outshoot a factory gun most every time.
However, if you really want to be able to shoot the same gun at 100/200yds and then at 600yds without modification (meaning switching barrels, stock configurations, etc...) then I would say that the 6br chambering with a fast twist barrel will be the most versatile. Caveat being that you most likely will not be competitive with the 100/200yd shooters unless you happen across a true gem of a factory gun. At 600yds with the heavier 6mm bullets you may be in the hunt, but again, those custom barrels and bullets will edge you out the majority of the time.
If you are serious about competing in the short range BR game, I would look to the classifieds or "the list" and contact Bob White for a used gun.
I built a 12lb br gun around a savage action last year, tried the shilen pre-chambered barrel, sightron 36x, and kept the factory trigger. It shoots well...but not well enough. It will give me solid .2's and then throw a mid .3 or .4. I will then sit behind a custom rifle and KNOW that it was me who made the error in the group by either missing a wind condition, or a handling error. It was really hard for me to truly understand what the other guys were saying about "mapping the wind" or just how truly accurate a well tuned BR gun is, and I didn't until I sat behind one. There is no more confident feeling than pointing that little dot at your target and putting the bullet right there.
Good luck in your pursuits,
Mike
 
I know many of you have suggested that I pick up a used BR rifle, which I understand and agree with. I have thought about doing just that many times, however there is something that tells me that I would never be competitive shooting in the same class with the 6ppc guys. I have been a member of River Bend Gun Club in north Georgia for more than 12 years now, and from what I have seen they fire at 100 and 200 yards only. All my time at River Bend has been in the shotgun area of competition, and having only fired in one 100 yard reduced match years ago to qualify to get a M1 Garand from the CMP.

The reason I am looking at the Savage is because I have so little rifle trigger time, and I feel as thought it would take me years to be able to compete with the 6ppc guys who are at RBGC, if at all. I thought “Production” class would be a good place for me to start, as there would be fewer people in my class who would be able to “out spend me” to better accuracy if I am correct about “Production” rules. I am a very competitive person, and I know my limitations, which is why I don’t think I would ever be competitive on the 6ppc level.

As a former drag racer, I know too well how massive amounts of cash being spent on your sport can affect your performance. I no longer have that level of disposable income, which is why I am at this time able to buy a rifle, or a scope, but not both.

This is the .223 rifle I have now, however it is an older version which came with a 1-12 twist bbl, and not the 1-9 twist they offer today. I would love to change my old 1-12 twist bbl to a 1-9 or 1-8 twist but do not know if this would still be “Production” rules. I would also love to lighten the trigger, but again not sure about the rule on that.

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=7890&return=Y

This is my best scope, probably junk as far as Benchrest shooting goes, but this is what I have.

http://www.excaliburenterprises.com/scopes/tasco/tactical.html

Again, I could buy a rifle, or a scope, but not both at this point. I do not know any good gunsmiths who could change out my 1-12 twist bbl for a faster one like I want, which is why I was looking at the Savage. Please take a look at this rifle and scope, and tell me what I would be best to do. I am not sure of the cost involved with putting a new bbl and trigger on my Ruger, and may be more expensive than its worth.

Any suggestions or pointing me to a gunsmith in the area would be very helpful

Thanks

Muleskinner
 
another consideration

might be to buy a rifle and shoot it in the "Factory Class" at some Score shoots but then you will be in the same place you now are in, wanting to be competative but not having the equipment to do so. There is nothing wrong with buying your equipmnt one piece at a time with the goal in mind that you will have a competative rig someday.

Get a second or third job and dedicate the proceeds to your Benchrest activities. Ask everyone if they know of someone who has BR equipment they are no longer using. Find what you need to shoot and replace it with better stuff as you go along, as we all do or most of us anyway.

I often see a Hall of Fame shooter shooting a sleeved Remington and doing just fine with it. Don't think you need the latest and greatest to get started. As Francis said, a reliable scope but don't forget, the rifle is only as good as the barrel on it. Be more concernd about those two things than what the rifle is made of or looks like.

Have Fun.

Pete
 
Muleskinner ...

As I mentioned earlier, I believe you first need to decide which discipline you're going to shoot. Remember, 100/200 yards "B"enchrest is a slow twist venture and 600 yards benchrest is a fast twist game. I recommend against trying to mix oranges with apples.

If you haven't done it yet, stroll on over to our neighbors site at: http://www.6mmbr.com/index.html and read up on all the cartridges you're interested in, on the CARTRIDGE INFO PAGE. Each page covers everything you need to know on bullets, barrel lengths and twist, powders, etcetera for each particular caliber you might want to compete with.

Start reloading if you haven't done it yet. Lots of people at your club, I'm sure, would be happy to mentor you through it and save you some unneeded expenses along the way. :)
 
abintx said:
Remember, 100/200 yards "B"enchrest is a slow twist venture and 600 yards benchrest is a fast twist game.
Click to expand...
Can you explain that? Is it b/c folks shoot light-for-caliber bullets at short range, and heavy-for-caliber bullets at long range? If so, why not shoot the same bullet at both ranges?
 
aka Hunter ...

I'm not a ballistician but here's what I've found that may answer your question and source(s) for additional reading:

What Barrel Twist Should I Use? The most versatile barrel twist rate is 1:8". This will shoot everything from 62gr FB bullets to 107 VLDs with great accuracy.

*** If you shoot mostly at 100-200 yards, a 1:14 twist will deliver 60-70gr match bullets with unrivaled accuracy. ***

Take-off 1:14 6PPC barrels rechambered to 6BR work great at low cost. For shooting out to 600 yards, in calm conditions, you may get best accuracy with custom 75-85gr FB bullets. These work best in a 1:12 twist tube. A 12-twist is perfect for varminting with the 75-grain V-max and the Berger 80gr MEF. Our initial testing shows the 1:10 twist to be very effective with the new low-drag 85-88gr FB bullets, and 90gr boat-tails. The 1:10 twist is a great choice for varminting and Egg Shoots because you can run the 87gr Hornady V-Max and shoot Lapua's very accurate 90gr factory-loaded ammo. If you need a barrel to shoot both light and heavy bullets, the best choice is still a 1:8. For the 115gr DTAC bullet, 1:8 will stabilize in most conditions, but 1:7 is a better bet.

Does Twist Rate Make a Difference in Velocity? Yes. Our tests show that, with the 80-90gr bullets, a 1:10 or 1:12 barrel will give you as much as 80fps more velocity than a 1:8 barrel, shooting the exact same loads. Fast twist (1:8) barrels have more drag and friction, which can slow the bullet down.

* Ideally you want to use the slowest twist rate possible that will stabilize the bullet you choose to shoot. *

*** For a dedicated "point-blank" 100/200 yard Benchrest gun, you want a twist rate from 1:13 to 1:15. ***

But if you want to shoot both light (60-80gr) and heavy (100gr+) bullets, stick with a 1:8.

Source: http://www.6mmbr.com/barrelFAQ.html

You might also want to call the Sierra Bullet Technicians @ 800-223-8799.

And, have a look at Dan Lilja's site here: http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/bullets_ballistics.htm. :)
 
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