n133 thrown charges at a match

0.01 ??
explain that...
looks like plus or minus 0.12 at the best and 0.16 at the worst, for a average spread of 0.28.

Good catch Mike, that was a typo and I fixed it. The actual differences for the seven strings were 0.14, 0.16, 0.32, 0.22, 0.26, .18, 0.22. So, if Excel did the math right the average of the differences is 0.214286, which I rounded off to 0.21. I just ran the median function on the differences and Ecxel rounded up to 0.22. Close enough.
 
When I am testing, my standard is that all throws at a given setting, that I would have accepted for charging a case, have an extreme spread of .2 grains. Usually if a technique is not going to work, that will show up within a dozen or so throws. If I get good results, I do larger numbers of throws, up to about 20. Many times things have looked very good, only to have an outlier crop up. It is the elimination of these that is most difficult.
 
Good Thread!

Weighed vs., thrown powder charges? :confused:

This is a subject I've always found particularly interesting. Like so many others, I've spent countless hours at the kitchen bar or dining table with various measures, powders and scales practicing different techniques trying to achieve that illusive 'perfect' result. :rolleyes: I can tell you right up front that perfection with either method cannot be achieved and in my opinion, nor is it necessary! :rolleyes:

Before I continue, keep in mind that I'm a short-range, group shooter. My experience in has been limited to mostly the 6ppc, 22-100, Lapua 220 Russian (a.k.a. the 220 Beggs and the 6 Beggs.)

The long range shooters weigh their charges and try to keep extreme spreads to a minimum, usually down in the single digits as variations in velocity really show up at longer ranges. The inevitable 20 to 40 fps extreme spreads seen with the 6ppc and 6Beggs using modern powders, good primers and either carefully weighed or thrown charges do not show up on the target at 100 and 200 yards. Yep, it's true and I can prove it to you in the tunnel. :cool:

Some powders flow through a Culver type measure like quicksilver and very definitely show smaller variations in charge weight and extreme velocity spreads. W-748, a small grain ball powder is tops in this regard in the tests I've run, but in the 6ppc, I never got it to shoot as well as N133 or 8208. To me, the new LT-32 looks exactly like the original T powder from Thunderbird. Both are small-grain, extruded powders and flow beautifully through my Jones measure.

In the tests I've run through the years, I've used Sinclair, Jones and Harrels measures. All performed equally well when kept clean, free of static electricity and using good operator technique. I don't use slow, complicated methods of operating. Simplicity and consistency is the key in my experience. :cool:
I raise the operating handle quickly and smoothly to the top stop, pause momentarily then use whatever technique is necessary on the down stroke to get the charge in the case. If there is plenty of room in the case just dump the charge quickly. If you are trickling slowly in order to get a heavy charge in the case, don't worry about the slow down stroke affecting the charge. The charge is determined on the upstroke of the handle. If you are quick and smooth on the upstroke and pause momentarily at the top, your charges will be very consistent. If you vary the rate at which you raise the handle, your charge weights will be all over the place.

Practice throwing 20 charges into clean, new cases with a spent primer seated upside down. Use the same cartridge tray or box you use on the firing line. Do everything exactly the same then weigh each charge using an accurate scale that you trust. If you can consistently throw 20 charges in which 90 percent of them are within plus or minus .1 grains, you're doing great and need not worry about whether or not you're 'leaving anything on the table' in short-range BR. :D

Once in a while, maybe one out of twenty, you will throw a charge that is .3 grains high or low. :mad: Don't worry 'bout it! If your rifle is properly tuned and shooting, it will ignore, due to positive compensation, an extreme spread of as much as 40 fps.

Well, there you have it; my opinion based on years of experience in match competition and in a 100 yard tunnel. I encourage you to run some tests of your own. Those who know me will say that I'm always trying to separate the fly poop from the pepper, always looking for easier, better, simpler ways of doing things. Some things make a difference, some don't. Others do no harm but waste valuable time. In my opinion, weighing each charge to the nearest gazillionth of a grain is a waste of time. :rolleyes: But don't get me wrong; you must know by weight in grains, what your measure is throwing. A small but reasonably accurate scale in your equipment box should be used to set your powder measure. I just don't think you need to weight each and every charge.

FWIW

Good shootin'

Gene Beggs
 
thank you gene!...
i believe you may be correct with n133..big soft tuning window....but i do not see guys dropping it at plus or minus .1, and
i think that is where they do leave stuff on the table.
have you tried either of the "lt" powders in your 6 begg's ??
 
Mike,

It’s all about the tune! Getting and keeping the gun in tune for the conditions and environment at that particular moment is everything.

The guy that wins at the end of the weekend has done a better job of tuning and driving the gun than everyone else.

We all know that short range and long range BR have some similarities, but some differences too as to what is necessary to win. I know very little about long range BR and what it takes to win. It seems that most LRBR guys go preloaded to a match with charges weighed to .01gr variation and are able to make that work over the course of a weekend with all the condition and environment changes. That won’t work in short range BR with the typical 6ppc… 30BR is another story, but let’s stick with the ppc as it is what most guys are using right now.

I don’t know what the causes are as to why the small adjustments are necessary to keep the ppc in tune. Small case capacity, short bearing surface, relatively fast burn rate powders, etc… who the hell knows.

You keep making the statement that by not having all charges to the .01 grain, short range guys are leaving something on the table. So, in your mind, what does that mean? Are you saying that you want to get your gun tuned to shooting zeros or ones and that’s it, the gun is perfectly tuned and will be so for all temp swings and condition changes?

Ok, lets say you come preloaded to a match and you gun is shooting zeros at 100 with a 10-15 mph wind from 9:00. What do you think your groups will look like when the wind turns to 12 or 6:00?? Still shooting zeros?

At the last match at Raton, I felt that Saturday at 100 was much more challenging that Sunday at 200. The winds were harder and switched direction much more quickly than anything I saw on Sunday. I started off Saturday with the gun in tune, luckily. I shot well for LV but got caught a little on the last 2 groups in HV. I was shooting 29.0 of 133 and didn’t change the powder all day for the record groups. On the last 3 or so targets, I was getting a little vertical in my groups but I was fine with that because I would have rather shot .300 vertical groups at the end of the match than shoot perfectly flat .450s in the wind we were seeing then. And, yes, I did check what a lower charge looked like on the sighter and it was worse than what I shot on the record.

Where I’m going with all of this is that there are times when you want the shape of the group to do something other than shoot zeros. You can’t do that preloaded. (Usually. I’m aware of how some folks tune with tuners but that’s not the discussion I want to have here.)

So, I’ll see your point and question and raise you my point and question.

While it’s great to shoot well in a particular yardage, the real goal is to have your name at the top of the page in the 2gun. I think that if folks were to follow your suggestion of coming preloaded to matches, they will actually shoot worse and end up further down the page (2gun) than if they shoot charges from a powder measure or chargemaster.

Mike, would you rather shoot a .250 with powder thrown from a measure, with its horrible .3 or .4 variance, or shoot a .500 straight up and down or horizontally with perfectly weighed charges that are .5 grain from being in tune??
 
Sometimes mike (all the time) you gotta keep tuning that gun. Go ask the top finishers at any match and see how many times they changed load over their 20 groups to stay in tune. The ones that cant follow the tune but shoot good are mid pack. The preloaders and broke scope guys are last. Ok ok sometimes we get lucky and never change nothin thru a whole match but thats rare. So now that youve seen how we do things first hand are you going to start coming to more matches?
 
Once you have a rifle that is capable of winning, you'll understand what we're trying to tell you. Until then, there's no harm in weighing powder...or not weighing powder. There is some harm but not much and if you weigh the charges at home you reverse the harm into good.

I wouldn't recommend that a new shooter weigh powder and that's what you are - a new shooter. Doesn't matter how many shots you have fired, you're a new benchrest shooter and benchrest shooting (group) is as different as it gets.

AND...thanks to goodgrouper for deleting that post. It was all I could do to keep from restoring it.
 
When I am testing, my standard is that all throws at a given setting, that I would have accepted for charging a case, have an extreme spread of .2 grains. Usually if a technique is not going to work, that will show up within a dozen or so throws. If I get good results, I do larger numbers of throws, up to about 20. Many times things have looked very good, only to have an outlier crop up. It is the elimination of these that is most difficult.

Testing and then proving a method at a match is two different things.

Later
Dave
 
i do not think i ever said come preloaded.
what i have said from day one is that if you are throwing n133 you are leaving accuracy on the loading bench.
the chargemaster is a step in the right direction.
with n133's large tune window, it may be all you need.( i tuned chargemaster...plus or minus .1)
an independent loading bench with an electronic scale at better than 0.1 would be nice.
i tried my gempro 250 at raton..on battaries,it was not close to what it holds on house current.
so a stable power source, and an electronic scale..
i suppose some shooting skill might help.
wish me luck this week....
 
i do not think i ever said come preloaded.
what i have said from day one is that if you are throwing n133 you are leaving accuracy on the loading bench.

What these folks are trying to tell you is that the only accuracy that is being left by thrown charges, is left at the bench. A finely tuned, winning, Group BR rifle will put them all through a little hole, even with the variation you quoted. Matter of fact, quite a bit more variation will still shoot dots in a great rifle. A few years back, I found a bullet/barrel/powder/seating depth combo that would shoot 29.2, 29.5, 29.8, 30.1, and 30.4 grains of 133, all through the same hole. Whenever I search for the right seating depth and tuner setting on a new barrel, this is the method I use to settle on a spot. Unfortunately, combos like this don't grow on trees...
 
so ., when the next bbl does not drill one hole with a wide powder window.....do you continue to throw a wide load ??
or do you try to narrow the window ??
if you try to narrow the window and you are throwing powder, you may not have much luck if you cannot throw at plus or minus .1.
and most cannot...
if you cannot control the powder charge how do you KNOW what the issue is ??

What these folks are trying to tell you is that the only accuracy that is being left by thrown charges, is left at the bench. A finely tuned, winning, Group BR rifle will put them all through a little hole, even with the variation you quoted. Matter of fact, quite a bit more variation will still shoot dots in a great rifle. A few years back, I found a bullet/barrel/powder/seating depth combo that would shoot 29.2, 29.5, 29.8, 30.1, and 30.4 grains of 133, all through the same hole. Whenever I search for the right seating depth and tuner setting on a new barrel, this is the method I use to settle on a spot. Unfortunately, combos like this don't grow on trees...
 
I know that if it won't win with dropped powder, it won't win. Folks like you and me don't have the cash to buy 10 barrels so we have to learn to shoot best with what we have. A lousy barrel will shoot within a few places, everytime, no matter what you do. Weighed powder or dropped powder - same thing. Really - same thing over and over.

Now, we finally get a really good shooting rifle.....voila!...things become different. Now we can talk weighing or not weighing. This is not a argument but rather a discussion. Larry Costa weighs powder and has always weighed powder to my knowledge. He weighed powder when he wasn't winning (I was there). I think he figured out it wasn't whether or not he weighs powder but rather the rifle he shoots. Regardless, I don't think Larry just buys one barrel and weighs powder. Could be wrong - really, I could be wrong!

The bottom line here is that you and I don't have enough money to argue the point. You weigh and I'll drop. That's it! I will agree that weighed powder is best. No brainer!
 
Back in the late 90's a fellow introduced me to all things benchrest, a fellow that built rifles for himself and others, and was good enough to redo a mold plug for Lee Six. At the beginning, I asked him how one assigns an order of importance to all of the details that contribute to shooting small groups in matches, or words to that effect. I think that that is the issue here. For some things to show up on the target, you need to have a long list of more important things well in hand, and if those things are not, then you are wasting your time.

I have helped several fellows get started with PPCs. The rifles that they have been blessed to start with would shoot into the high 1's under perfect conditions. Invariably, having gotten a taste of a higher level of accuracy, their minds turned to details that were not the next on an informed to do list. It happens all the time. A good barrel, learning how to maintain tune as the ambient conditions change, a set of wind flags, and lots of practice are all ahead of any concern about the difference that may or may not be seen by weighing charges. The fellows that ignore this, invariably end up with a couple of wallet groups and go round in circles. They resist using flags, and prefer to load at home, seldom practice, and become expert rationalizers.
 
Charge question

Wilbur...

A bit of levity.. In the 90s learning from Lee Six, with a brand new gun from Sinclair and all stuff from Walt Berger, I was allowed to load at the " Master " The table, that was a 5x9, 1" sheet of plywood on stacked 8x cinder blocks.
Each of 'The Best " would operate his powder measure as he knew best, and the TABLE would respond with the proper drop. In need of the best idea, watched all 5 shooter doing their thing, and to this date I remember all those measuring devices seemed to allow very low 1s on the wailing board.
As I have always said, Nothing new under the Sun. Thanks Wilbur
 
Mike- i know its frustrating to have a good idea and then get so much resistance. What we've been trying to tell you for years and now you have seen it first hand- weighed charges make no difference in short range br. Now im not saying a rookie with a harrels thrower is not leaving something on the table, but what we've been trying to say is once the other things come together 133 has such a wide window that those variances that an experienced thrower gets does not matter at all. I doubt boyer weighs his charges, i know scarbrough doesnt, dont think mr buckys does, know billy and bart doesnt, and i could go on and on. But i can appreciate you trying to better the sport
 
I have followed this thread with interest, as for years I have been telling people that N133 does NOT throw consistent charges from any of the powder measures that I have seen - including some well constructed custom jobs.
I have used a Chargemaster for quite some time now for this reason, and yes I do check the charge with an Acculab scales from time to time.

As a matter of interest, when we shot in the WBC in South Africa, we had to use the local powder (SomChem), and it was a real bugger to throw accurately. My team weighed every charge, and found some alarming variations.

Other powders such as the Australian 8202 throw beautifully, almost like WW 748, but I believe that the kernel size of the powder might have something to do with this.

In a game where we try to get everything exactly the same shot after shot, I am happy to weigh each charge.

Brendan Atkinson
In South Australia
 
OMG.. A BENCH REST SHOOTER SAID THAT....
careful bj, you may get banned.

(thanks!)
I have followed this thread with interest, as for years I have been telling people that N133 does NOT throw consistent charges from any of the powder measures that I have seen - including some well constructed custom jobs.
I have used a Chargemaster for quite some time now for this reason, and yes I do check the charge with an Acculab scales from time to time.

As a matter of interest, when we shot in the WBC in South Africa, we had to use the local powder (SomChem), and it was a real bugger to throw accurately. My team weighed every charge, and found some alarming variations.

Other powders such as the Australian 8202 throw beautifully, almost like WW 748, but I believe that the kernel size of the powder might have something to do with this.

In a game where we try to get everything exactly the same shot after shot, I am happy to weigh each charge.

Brendan Atkinson
In South Australia
 
If you can consistently throw 20 charges in which 90 percent of them are within plus or minus .1 grains, you're doing great and need not worry about whether or not you're 'leaving anything on the table' in short-range BR. :D

Once in a while, maybe one out of twenty, you will throw a charge that is .3 grains high or low. :mad: Don't worry 'bout it! If your rifle is properly tuned and shooting, it will ignore, due to positive compensation, an extreme spread of as much as 40 fps.


A finely tuned, winning, Group BR rifle will put them all through a little hole, even with the variation you quoted. Matter of fact, quite a bit more variation will still shoot dots in a great rifle. A few years back, I found a bullet/barrel/powder/seating depth combo that would shoot 29.2, 29.5, 29.8, 30.1, and 30.4 grains of 133, all through the same hole.

I'm confused! Many good shooters "throw and go" -- others want to weigh each load. Regarding Gene's statement above, what about when two of the 10-percenters create a .6 grain spread from the others? Also, I've read about many folks doing ladder testing in .3 grain increments. What's accomplished with such testing if your loads have a reasonable likelihood of a built-in error of +/- .3 grain, or, as Hal suggests, bullets will go in the same hole with a rather large spread? Also, I've read Gene's comments about "we can't be more than .6 grains in either direction out to tune!" What that says to me is that +/-.3 grains can represent the difference between in-tune and not in-tune -- which seems inconsistent with his statement above.

So, the question (assuming a good barrel and a good shooter): How much spread in ALL of the charges is acceptable to have confidence in your load?
 
I'm confused! Many good shooters "throw and go" -- others want to weigh each load. Regarding Gene's statement above, what about when two of the 10-percenters create a .6 grain spread from the others? Also, I've read about many folks doing ladder testing in .3 grain increments. What's accomplished with such testing if your loads have a reasonable likelihood of a built-in error of +/- .3 grain, or, as Hal suggests, bullets will go in the same hole with a rather large spread? Also, I've read Gene's comments about "we can't be more than .6 grains in either direction out to tune!" What that says to me is that +/-.3 grains can represent the difference between in-tune and not in-tune -- which seems inconsistent with his statement above.

So, the question (assuming a good barrel and a good shooter): How much spread in ALL of the charges is acceptable to have confidence in your load?

You might want to listen to mickie in co. You may also ask him how many registered matches he has competed in and his results.
 
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