My First 300 Yard Experience. Help.

[Phil3]

I shot my home built AR15 for the first time at 300 yards. It did not go as well as I had hoped. Looking for some insight.

Conditions were a straight on head wind, that kept full size flags very nearly straight out. A piece of paper on the ground blew faster than I could run to catch it. BlackHills 223 Remington, 69 grain Sierra MatchKing in a 1:9" 22" Krieger barrel. Shot off range bean bags, with round handguard riding on bag. Rear of standard stock resting on sandbag. Using about 10X on the scope. Best group was 2.375". More normal was 2.75". I expected better. Expectations too high? 55 grain BlackHills remanufactured did little different.

I am sure I need to work on shooting skills. Where can I learn more about this, such as breathing, grip, trigger management, etc? I would like someone else to shoot the gun to see what it can do, so I can see if I am the limitation. But, a bit hard to find a top notch shooter in one's backyard. I am in the San Francisco bay area.

I was able to eek out a .625" 5 shot group at 100 yards with it using inexpensive PMC bronze ammo in 55 grain, at another range with zero wind. Because of that performance, I expected under 2" at 300 yards with the BlackHills.

Any tips for this shooter on how to shoot better and or performance of the rifle in the kind of wind described?

- Phil

 

[tobybradshaw]

Phil, if you are getting sub-MOA groups from a gas gun shooting factory ammo with a 10X scope in a howling wind at 300yd, I'd say you're doing as well as can be expected.

Group sizes don't scale linearly with distance, so you can't extrapolate to 300yd from your 100yd group size. The same wind moves a bullet 9 times farther at 300yd than at 100yd, and small differences in muzzle velocity have much more noticeable effects at longer ranges.

The fastest way to learn to shoot well from a bench is to get a benchrest rifle. Still.

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net

 

[Bill Ohio]

I shot my home built AR15 for the first time at 300 yards. It did not go as well as I had hoped. Looking for some insight.

Conditions were a straight on head wind, that kept full size flags very nearly straight out. A piece of paper on the ground blew faster than I could run to catch it. BlackHills 223 Remington, 69 grain Sierra MatchKing in a 1:9" 22" Krieger barrel. Shot off range bean bags, with round handguard riding on bag. Rear of standard stock resting on sandbag. Using about 10X on the scope. Best group was 2.375". More normal was 2.75". I expected better. Expectations too high?
- Phil

Yes.

Until you and your rig/loads can reliably and regularly shoot 1/2 MOA at 100y, you are unlikely to exceed MOA results at longer range. Re-set your expectations. Your results are not bad.

 

[Phil3]

How can I differentiate between me, the rifle, and the loads as a limiting factor in accuracy? I am able to shoot under MOA at 100 yards with no wind, using inexpensive PMC ammo. I am able to achieve that more often than not.

- Phil

 

[Winchester 69]

I am sure I need to work on shooting skills. Where can I learn more about this, such as breathing, grip, trigger management, etc?

David Tubb has books that discuss these factors.

 

[Phil3]

The fastest way to learn to shoot well from a bench is to get a benchrest rifle. Still.

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net

Actual time behind the trigger is helping define what shooting discipline I want. I did find I REALLY wanted the small group and was already thinking about things to do to achieve this. Bug may be taking hold. If so, I know a BR rifle is needed.

- Phil

 

[Dave B]

AR at 300

Give some thought as to what type of shooting a AR type of rifle was built for.
If you are shooting at a man size target at 300 yards, your rifle is more than adaquate. If you are shooting at hummingbird size targets you may need to rethink your equipment.
In 30 plus years of registered competition and many hundreds of registered matches I've never seen a AR type of rifle compete, much less win. Even a single small group....
Dave Blazzard
St. George, Utah

 

[f d shuster]

300 yds.

Phil3: As others have said, less than moa at 300 yds., with a "standard"(?) AR is not bad. And, as previously mentioned, as an example, if you are getting 1/2" at 100, do not expect to see 1 1/2" at 300---- too many "outside" factors as the distances increase. Just a few thoughts, from my experiences with one of my AR's, a Colt flatop w/ a Krieger 1-8: I would feel handicapped with a 10x scope at 300 yds. That's the distance I'd bring out one of the 6.5-20x, cranked up to 20x of course. Watch your buttstock sling swivel "loop". It cannot touch the rear bag. For serious work I remove it. While the Sierra 69 gr. #1380 is an excellent bullet ( one of my top choices), for 300+ I will use the Sierra 77 and 80 gr. MatchKings, with the 8 twists, of course. They do fight the wind better. I have removable leather bags filled with lead shot, filling up the buttstock compartment and pistol grip, adding a nice amount of weight for the already muzzle heavy, heavy barrel. Rifle weight is 12.8 #. The round handguard is a concern, and the flat adapters may help. And finally, M.L.McPherson did an article in "Precision Shooting" in October 2001, titled "A ? of bag placement and gun design", detailing the problems, and fixes, when firing AR's, Ruger #1's, pump action's, etc. off the bag. He found better results when keeping the front bag as close as possible to the front of the receiver. Hope at least a little of this helps. Great rifle, especially since it was never intended to be used for long distance precision work.

 

[Phil3]

Phil3: As others have said, less than moa at 300 yds., with a "standard"(?) AR is not bad. And, as previously mentioned, as an example, if you are getting 1/2" at 100, do not expect to see 1 1/2" at 300---- too many "outside" factors as the distances increase.

Thank you for this most helpful message. First, I know the AR is not the ideal platform for accuracy, and am only trying to see how well I can make an AR perform. Rooting for the underdog, even though I know it will never compete with a quality bolt gun.

The rifle is "standard" in that it uses off the shelf parts, albeit ones best suited for accuracy (Krieger heavy barrel, Geissele trigger, etc.).

Just a few thoughts, from my experiences with one of my AR's, a Colt flatop w/ a Krieger 1-8: I would feel handicapped with a 10x scope at 300 yds. That's the distance I'd bring out one of the 6.5-20x, cranked up to 20x of course.

The Bushnell 426245T tactical scope I was using goes up to 24 power, but shaking was so bad, I backed it off. Now that I think about it, 16 - 20 would have probably suited me better.

Watch your buttstock sling swivel "loop". It cannot touch the rear bag. For serious work I remove it.

My butt stock loop was resting on the rear bag. Oops!

While the Sierra 69 gr. #1380 is an excellent bullet ( one of my top choices), for 300+ I will use the Sierra 77 and 80 gr. MatchKings, with the 8 twists, of course. They do fight the wind better.

With a 1:9" twist, I felt 69 grain was about as much as I could shoot. Not sure 77s will fit in the mag. Could single shot it.

I have removable leather bags filled with lead shot, filling up the buttstock compartment and pistol grip, adding a nice amount of weight for the already muzzle heavy, heavy barrel. Rifle weight is 12.8 #.

Good idea on the added weight to the stock, and pistol grip. How do you hold the weight in the grip (mine is open on the bottom). My rifle is 12.8 lbs now, with bi-pod (did not use this trip). I will buy the Magpul MIAD grip, since one problem I noticed was that the grip is too close to the trigger making for an awkward trigger finger position. Not sure if the MIAD will hold more weight.

The round handguard is a concern, and the flat adapters may help.

I will most likely buy Evolution Gun Works bag adapters for the AR. These are here. http://egw-guns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=53&products_id=295

And finally, M.L.McPherson did an article in "Precision Shooting" in October 2001, titled "A ? of bag placement and gun design", detailing the problems, and fixes, when firing AR's, Ruger #1's, pump action's, etc. off the bag. He found better results when keeping the front bag as close as possible to the front of the receiver.

I kept the from bag near the front of the handguard, away from the receiver. Seems like I did everything wrong. Now, to find a copy of the Precision Shooting article. Anyone? Or can the mag provide it? I do have a subscription.

Hope at least a little of this helps. Great rifle, especially since it was never intended to be used for long distance precision work.

Great tips, thanks.

- Phil

 

[Boyd Allen]

I suggest that you read the article that this link will take you to. http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek090.html
Note the stock attachments, and the rest setup. As to your comment about zero wind, how did you determine this? Wilbur Harris once wrote something to the effect that it is amazing how the wind comes up every time a set of flags are put out. Trust me; if you don't have anything in front of you to facilitate "seeing" the wind between you and the target, you are flying blind.

 

[Phil3]

I know that link well, and have corresponded with Mr. Whitley more than once. It is the link that got me interested in a very accurate AR to begin with. I am ordering the EGW bag riders and a front rest (which one?, another decision).

I said zero wind, because the ample trees, long dead California grass around the range were dead still. Dust kicked up walking to and from the target showed zero wind at that instance, but this result was the same each time.

I will ask the range about using some sort of flag next time. Never seen anyone use those at the this range.

I could have definitely used wind flags at the 300 yard range. Still, I had no idea how to cope with a varying headwind. I did feel like I was flying blind in that situation (and still do, even if I had flags).

- Phil

 

[Boyd Allen]

Before I got flags and stands, I found that simple sticks, or rods, driven into the ground, with a couple of lengths of surveyor's ribbon taped to their tops, extending to the ground, were a good place to start. Also, don't be afraid to experiment with how you hold the rifle when shooting from a rest. With a heavy trigger, sometimes, a heavy hold will help stabilize your sight picture. Too often, I see shooters that stick to one approach for all their rifles. It has been my experience that experimenting to determine what a particular rifle likes can yield big dividends.

 

[Phil3]

Good tips, thank you! I definitely need to be more comfortable at the bench. Each time I have been at the range, someone two benches down from me was shooting a 30 caliber with a muzzle brake under a canopy, one gun being a 300WinMag. I can not shoot at comfortably with earmuffs on, and see down the scope well. I used earplugs only when the other guy was not shooting and then donned the muffs when the other boomers were being shot. This was a clumsy distracting operation at best. I may need to use a different scope mount and get the scope higher and hopefully be able to use the plugs and muffs when I have noisy neighbors.

The trigger on the AR is quite light for an AR. It is a Geissele Match stage and according to my Lyman digital trigger pull gauge, 1st stage is about 2 lbs, or just a tad over. Second stage as adjusted now, is about 10 oz or less, but I want it less. Can go down to 4 oz.

I found a link where a shooter who can shoot gas guns very well, said some benchrest techniques just don't work for semi-autos. I need to refresh on that article. Most certainly I need to experiment.

It seems to me that working out best rifle handling techniques with one ammunition is a best first step, and then modify loads next. This assumes the rifle is left unchanged as well. What do you think?

- Phil

 

[Boyd Allen]

The Peltor shotgun muffs are not enough by themselves, but they are thin enough to not cause problems when shooting and as part of double coverage they help.

 

[Phil3]

These do not appear any thinner than the Howard Leight ones I have now. My wife can help me see what the interference problem is.

- Phil

 

[ShadowChaser]

Phil3,
Its been a few years since I messed with AR15/M16 guns and I'm not sure how yours is configured but I have to wonder if the simple fix is to swap butt stock to one that is relieved to clear the ear muffs when rested shooting?

Happy Shooting,
Mitch & Shadow...

 

[f d shuster]

AR's

Phil: One of the first things I replaced when I bought the Colt new in '95 was the pistol grip. Picked up an aftermarket that has a trap door cover to hold "things" inside the pistol grip. Hinged, with a push latch, works well, has never come open and it makes that space usable-- for something. If you remove the bottom butt stock loop, the buttplate will still remain in place, held by the top screw, but to guarantee no problems, I obtained a spare sling loop, cut,filed,smoothed and painted it black. It is contoured to the underside of the butt and the bottom screw is once again usable. If I'm competing in a Service rifle match where the sling must be attached at both front and rear, I remount the original. The modified one is used for off the bag only. Yes, I believe you are correct about the 77 gr. not working in a 9 twist, and that's the main reason I have one 1-9 upper and two that are 1-8. Best to try, testing side-by-side for group as you increase weight/length. My son competes in 600 yd F-Class with a bolt 223 and switched to a 1-7 since he was getting beat up by the wind using the 69 gr. #1380 in his original 1-9. I did try McPherson's recommendation, again in side-by-side comparison starting at the front of the handguard, then half way back, then almost touching the receiver. The rearmost position produced the tightest group every time. For me, it also works to hold the rifle "hard" as if it were a 308, 30-06, etc., with a lot of recoil. A lose, relaxed hold did not produce consistant groups, just my personal experience.

 

[Lynn]

Phil
It sounds like the wind ate you alive.You also need to handload your 223 ammo so its not shooting 5/8 at 100 yards.The guys at BlackHills Ammo make good ammo but you can hand tailor it to your gun.
If you want to know how it stacks up bring it to a 600 match or Circle S on a sunday and shoot it against everyone else.
Lynn

 

[Phil3]

I did try McPherson's recommendation, again in side-by-side comparison starting at the front of the handguard, then half way back, then almost touching the receiver. The rearmost position produced the tightest group every time. For me, it also works to hold the rifle "hard" as if it were a 308, 30-06, etc., with a lot of recoil. A lose, relaxed hold did not produce consistant groups, just my personal experience.

My AR, all 12 lbs of it, just jumped around more than I thought it would, even compared to a 308 bolt action. I have much to try next time out.

Phil

 

[Phil3]

Phil
It sounds like the wind ate you alive.You also need to handload your 223 ammo so its not shooting 5/8 at 100 yards.The guys at BlackHills Ammo make good ammo but you can hand tailor it to your gun.
If you want to know how it stacks up bring it to a 600 match or Circle S on a sunday and shoot it against everyone else.
Lynn

I had no idea how to handle a headwind. I have ordered some reloading equipment, of which a few items are here, others coming, and more yet to be ordered. Plus, I need to construct my reloading bench. The 5/8" group at 100 yards was cheap PMC ammo. I would expect the BlackHills to do better, and of course, developed handloads even better, despite this being a gas gun.

I did not build this AR for 600 yards, and would not expect it to do well at that. Since my local range is just 100 and 200 yards, I opted for a 1:9" twist barrel shooting 55 - 69 grain bullets. My 300 yard visit is a rare one. Shooting at 600 yards, with a 69 grain bullet, with wind, is probably beyond my capabilities to shoot decently, especially with the lack of a good rest. I may buy a 6.5 Grendel or 6mmAR upper assembly for it, which is better suited for 600 yards and has wind drift at 600 yards, more than 40% less than the 69 grain 223.

I do intend on getting an accurate bolt gun, but right now, need to get reloading done, due to accuracy considerations, as well as sheet cost of factory ammo. Lapua or Federal match ammo is a $1.50+ per shot.

- Phil