Muzzle devices. (tuners), Calfee

[Lynn]

Bjs6

Bryce I don't know when Bill said what is being attributed to him.If it is true the weight required would most likely be very light.
In my testing it doesn't take alot of weight to get the bullets to converge using a wide velocity variance.In Jackie's test on a 6PPC it was around 8 ounces.
I will try the two loads 50-60 fps apart and see if both groups can be made small at the same time without converging on thursday.
Lynn

 

[Tony C]

Lynn

Bryce I don't know when Bill said what is being attributed to him.

Are you referring to the quote I posted? If so, here is the quote in more context of its thread.

Hope this helps,
Tony

Friend Lawernce W

Friend Lawernce W:

I am old, and I have tested this day, cold, real cold, and windy 20-30 MPH..

But my friend, what I have found so far is this....your question about if the tuner stops the muzzle at one velocity, will it stop it at another....the anwer is YES..

I shot this PM, velocities from 1041 to 1072.....this is rimfire ammo....but it does relate to your question......all of the different velocities shot very small groups, but at slightly different heights on the target....and my tuner is not adjustable.....

Larry, in other words, I believe, with all my heart, I have stopped the muzzle with this experiment.....I think I can shoot several different velocities of ammo....all will have a slightly different impact vertically on the target....

My friend, there are folks on this forum, that will say; as the temp changes duiring a match, we must adjust our loads, tuner or not, to chase conditions......I am sorry my friends, but I do not, for one second, believe that the velocity difference between 70 degrees and 90 degrees, during a match, will cause any problems......but, if you do not use a tuner, or use a tuner too light, or positioned wrong, to comploetely STOP your muzzle, yes, you will have to adjust loads.......but why? If you folks use tuners heavy enough, and positioned properly, 30 degrees temp change in a match will mean absolutely nothing........please do not be mad at me for say this...

My friends, I put this thread on this forum to try my best to get centerfire folks to develop methods which will allow tuners to be used that will completely STOP your muzzles........not just slow them down...

Your friend, Bill Calfee

Friend Gene and Mike H, and everybody..

My friends:

Friend Gene: I qoute from you...and Mike H and others... "My question is, "How do you know when you have STOPPED the muzzle?"

Friend Gene and Mike H, and everybody.....Gene, yes, this IS THE QUESTION!!!!

I have written in a magazine, which I can't say the name of, cause Wilbur will accuse me of advertizing, and if he don't others will, about how to determine the proper weight of a tuner to stop the muzzle....

I have spent this week, running an experiment, which I am feely describing on this thread, on how to Stop the muzzle....

Please my friends, go back and read what I have posted about this experiment.....I am doing everyting in my power to describe to you folks how to STOP YOUR MUZZLES......

Please re-read what I have already written, please....but, if you have not read my articles on this subject, in that magazine, which I can't name, then, what I'm trying my dead level best to expalin, on this fourm, won't make much sense.......I'm sorry for that......I can't make folks buy that magazine...

Friend Gene.....one other thing.....about the muzzle blast affecting accuracy if the tuner is past the muzzle...? My friend, I do not think it does...as a matter of fact, I think it is a benefit to accuracy.....I do not think a bullet shot through a tube is hurt by the muzzle blast....unless the tube diameter is extremely small....

Gene, see my friend, the weight of the tuner has to be past the muzzle...so the bullet must pass through some sort of tube......this not only does not affect accruacy, but is probably an asset....

My friends, I am going to compete my experiment..and give the results...

How does one know when the muzzle is stopped? When you can shoot several loads, of different velocities, and all print small groups, even though those small groups, from different velocities, print at different heights on the target....you have stopped the muzzle... I am close to that now with my experiment....

If you shoot loads with different velocities, do you know what I mean about different velocities, not different within the same load, and you have to adjust your tuner to get them to group, your tuner has not stopped the muzzle...in other words,. if you shoot groups with loads of 3300 FPS, then shoot loads of 3350 FPS.....if both will group the same, even though at slightly different places on the target, you have stopped your muzzle...if you have to adjust the tuner to get both loads to group, your muzzle is not stopped...

Your friend, Bill Calfee

 

[Lynn]

Thank You TonyC

Tony thank you for posting that.
Bryce I think I have all of the necessary requirements to do the test described above on thursday.
I still think it is the same weight but we shall see if it works as described.From the description it behaves exactly like a tensioned barrel does.
Lynn
PS I hope Tim reads this.

 

[tim in tx]

lynn and bill

that is pretty much what we have been doing i thought,at 100yds,by converging the differing velocities that means all velocities in between the set extemes will go into 1 hole so different velocites will shoot good groups but to do that they have to be tuned to hit one poi at the yardage,if i go to shoot back at 100yds with the tuner positively set for 1000yds,my guess is it will shoot a nice tight group,unless i have slight [4-10]velocity variance and then it would be shown as verticle,if you set the tuner soley for 100 yards well i am sure anything you put through it will shoot within a given spread good in the form of vertical only.you still have to handle the wind.i would like to see bill shoot some longer ranges before i can completely accept his claim,no offense bill but your muzzle appears to be stopped at 42- 100 yds but try some longer differing yardages and i think you will find that it is not stopped or parallel,it is just not as aparent at 50-100 yds. if the was truly completly stopped i would think you would be able to shoot tight groups at ALL YARDAGES [100-1000 yds]with any load in any temp at a wide range of velocites with 1 tuner setting. so far i just have not seen it yet. good luck with the testing lynn sir and bill as well.i will be certainly taking heed of the results. tim in tx

 

[Vibe]

I agree with Lynn....sort of.

Thanks TonyC.
Links to those posts would be helpful, but not required. This is actually rather funny. Since it seems that we are trying to achieve something quite beyond what Bill originally postulated.

I shot this PM, velocities from 1041 to 1072.....this is rimfire ammo....but it does relate to your question......all of the different velocities shot very small groups, but at slightly different heights on the target....and my tuner is not adjustable.....

in other words,. if you shoot groups with loads of 3300 FPS, then shoot loads of 3350 FPS.....if both will group the same, even though at slightly different places on the target, you have stopped your muzzle.

Bills original "design" made no allowance for bringing shots within a range of ES into the same group - only that shots of the EXACT same velocity (no matter what it was, but with no velocity spread allowance), would group the same, with an allegedly "stopped" barrel. We all mostly knew that already, but I must admit that (though I remember reading those posts) I had missed the fact that Bill had said it.

Also quite obviously that is NOT what we wanted. The desire is to find the combination that "self-corrects" the ES factor out of the group. And even Bill has said that a "stopped" barrel simply will not do this.