Muzzle devices. (tuners), Calfee

K

Kathy

Guest
My friends:

Am ready to test the RvA, solid, muzzle device on SPEC 4...

But first: Today I took a bored through muzzle device, (tuner) which can be moved any place on the muzzle, for and aft, and did a bunch of testing...

I do not want to offend anyone....but, it is impossible to "stop the muzzle" unless one positions the muzzle device weight, at the correct place, "ahead" of the crown".

My dear friends:

Muzzle devices are the greatest improvement in accuracy in mine, and your, lifetime......

Before long, you will not be able to win, without one...they are that important.

If the proper weight is placed at the proper position ahead of the muzzle, the muzzle will completely stop......after this, no further adjustment of the muzzle device (tuner) is necessary....

Your friend,, Bill Calfee
 
With all due respect Bill, and I mean that sincerely .............. Is the world ready for another tuner thread ???

:)

Bryce
 
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Bill, how do you recommend attaching the device? I assume it must me movable to fine tune it, then lock it down and forget it..
 
Well I'm glad Bill has finally started including that the position is as important as the mass. Though I doubt he will give credit to where that came from. :D

Also glad he used the "bored through" tuner - shooting through a solid block is not going to help accuracy any. :D
 
I had to read it a couple times myself, what I THINK he meant is he tested with a device that allowed it to be slid/moved along the barrel either fore or aft of the crown. He concluded that the device must be placed ahead of the crown. Anyway, I'm pretty sure that's what he said. Thanks, Douglas
 
Friend eww1350

MY friend:

The bored through device I used was clamped......centerfire can't do that of course....

With the muzzle device flush with the crown, I can adjust it and cause bullets to strike different locations.....I even (tuned) it to one velocity ammo and it worked fine.....but a different velocity strung vertically.....

I then installed a Hoehn style muzzle device (tuner) and using the screw-in weights from RVA, which stopps the muzzle on this barrel, both velocities of ammo shot nice little groups.....

My friends, I ain't too good of a shooter.....I simply have no idea how I could shoot a match and go about adjusting the muzzle device, during the match, and keep my head on straight......

I mean, when I started a target, and thought I had things tuned OK, then after four or five rounds I started getting vertical, which way do I turn the tuner? And how far....

In rimfire we shoot maybe 35 to 40 rounds at a target, sighters and record...
If one started getting vertical, would one turn the thing out a turn, then shoot some sighters to see if he went the right direction? If the vertical got worse, I guess he'd have to turn the thing back the other direction and shoot some more sighters to see if he had killed the vertical.....

A rimfire barrel may work OK after 50 or 60 shots during a target, with all that messing with the tuner....but a centerfire barrel would melt.....of course....

Someone asked if we really need another "tuner" thread.....I'd say we need tuner threads till we get the thing right......

No my friends.......a muzzle device has the ability to "stop" the muzzle....thereafter, no further adjustment is necessary....

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Jetmugg said:
Bill:
Please define "stopped muzzle".

Steve.
Click to expand...
Steve
Work with it. :D
2 conditions
1) At or near the uppermost swing of the 1st mode harmonic
2) Moving the node of the 2nd order harmonic into the same plane as the crown.

OK. It's not "stopped" in the literal sense of the word - just drasticly slower than at other points of the cycle. It could be at the "stopped", just before direction reversal, point for one shot, but not one of a differing exit time. But let's say it places "all" reasonable expected exit times within a predictable window with the muzzle in a particular, controllable, position - such that slower bullets exit with a more upward exit vector.

It's working for me, and you know how persnickity I've been on the subject.

It explains why one must use the "mid point" of the elusive (IE non-existent) "Parallel node", IE the node itself. (But with an angle between the legs of the "X" shape of much less than 1MOA - we'll allow "Parallel" to float for now).

What ever Bill wants to call it - "we've" managed to convey the concept and now have some good experimental data coming in.
 
Jet Mug

Bill has posted:

If you shoot loads with different velocities, do you know what I mean about different velocities, not different within the same load, and you have to adjust your tuner to get them to group, your tuner has not stopped the muzzle...in other words,. if you shoot groups with loads of 3300 FPS, then shoot loads of 3350 FPS.....if both will group the same, even though at slightly different places on the target, you have stopped your muzzle...if you have to adjust the tuner to get both loads to group, your muzzle is not stopped...
Click to expand...

This is not a definition, but one way to determine if you have found it I suppose.
 
OK then .....

That places a rather different light on the whole theory .......... so now the muzzle is meant to be pointing in one place and different velocities will impact at different places ????

Isn't that totally contrary to what the whole logic of this ideal tuner set up is all about ??
 
I am going the store and get myself a quart of Jack Daniels " Single Barrel"
 
Vibe?

Vibe said:
Well I'm glad Bill has finally started including that the position is as important as the mass. Though I doubt he will give credit to where that came from. :D

Vibe let me guess-You missed the 500 posts that said the weight needs to be in front of the muzzle? Who do you think needs credit? You? LOLROFLMAO
Lynn
Click to expand...
 
Lynn,

Apparently this is a quote from Bill " ........ If you shoot loads with different velocities, do you know what I mean about different velocities, not different within the same load, and you have to adjust your tuner to get them to group, your tuner has not stopped the muzzle...in other words,. if you shoot groups with loads of 3300 FPS, then shoot loads of 3350 FPS.....if both will group the same, even though at slightly different places on the target, you have stopped your muzzle...if you have to adjust the tuner to get both loads to group, your muzzle is not stopped......... "

Can you pass comment on that, seems the muzzle is now in fact stopped and the bullets hitting in different places, I thought the whole muzzle stopped thing was just Bill's way of describing it and a stopped muzzle (by Bill's definition) would land slightly different velocity rounds in one hole.

I am not trying to be argumentative here, I'd just like to try and understand the theory but the goal posts seem to keep changing. Seems there is some mix up between "grouping" as in one load shooting well and "grouping together" as in two slightly different loads having the same point of impact.

Bill may be clear in his mind what he is talking about but if he is as interested in passing on information and seeing development in this direction it'd help if he was more clear in the way he passes that information on. I have a barrel here that I'd be happy to assign to tuner testing but before I spent any money I'd like to be able to make some sense of how these things are supposed to do what they are said to be able to do. So far I have gone back and forth all over the place with concepts and theories that have later been contradicted by the same guys.

Bryce
 
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Bjs6

Bryce I don't remember seeing that quote from Bill.I have tried getting two different loads to shoot into one hole but I never agg'ed two different loads to see if they were both small.

At this point the NBRSA 600 Yard Nationals are less than 4 weeks away so I'm sticking with my set-up as is on my lightgun.The weight is 5-3/4 ounces and its 1-7/8 inches out in front of the muzzle and the barrel is threaded.
My heavygun has the sliding tuner body on it without threads and my weight set is on its way here from Idaho.
I will duplicate my lightgun type testing on my heavygun and go with it at the nationals.After that I will have more time to write Bill and see if we are on the same page.
Lynn
 
Lynn said:
Vibe let me guess-You missed the 500 posts that said the weight needs to be in front of the muzzle? Who do you think needs credit? You?
Lynn
Click to expand...
"In front of the muzzle" sort of covers a lot of area, and is none too specific.So yeah, myself and a few others are due just a bit for his finally recognizing that "in front of the muzzle" is just not good enough. Nor is just stating that "X" amount of weight "in front of the muzzle" likely to have the same meaning, or effect, for the various people reading the threads.
5.4oz, 3.6" in front of the muzzle can be expressed as 5.4*3.6=19.44 oz.in. - which implies that a 4 oz weight will also have almost (if not exactly) the same effect if placed at a distance of 4.86 inches.
 
Vibe

Vibe said:
"In front of the muzzle" sort of covers a lot of area, and is none too specific.So yeah, myself and a few others are due just a bit for his finally recognizing that "in front of the muzzle" is just not good enough.
Click to expand...


Vibe I guess he owes you and a few others all of the credit for his tuners he's been using and building since 1993? I must have missed yours and the others posts back then telling him how to do it.Can you post a link?
If you get a chance to visit his website you will see an article in Precision Shooting long before you ever visited this board.Were you and the others telling Bill how to do it off forum then and if so why the long silence?
Please let us know how far out in front a weight needs to be placed and what the correct weight is.I will not only give you credit I'll send you a box of free bullets.
My lightgun barrels are 30 inch Max heavy varmint tapers and my heavygun barrels are 1.450 straight cylinders 30-32 inches long.I need the exact point out in front of the muzzle and weight.If I win the nationals using your tuner numbers I'll send you 2 free boxes of bullets.
Lynn
 
Lynn,

Now you are just being silly !

Vibe simply stated that he prompted Bill to be more specific about weight and distance in front of the muzzle, define things better, god knows that can't be a bad thing.

I am still highly intrigued about that apparent Bill Calfee quote talking about a stopped muzzle shooting two loads accurately but to different points of impact, seems if that is something Bill did say then we are all being led around in circles !!
 
I Got It Now

I guess it was that old east coast west coast communication problem.

On the west coast when you get credit for something it is because you were instrumental in its development,design or manufacture.

On the east coast I guess you want credit for asking a person to better describe his 20 plus year old design for you?
Lynn
 
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