Muzzle brakes in heavy gun class

my .02

My turn...:D

I started last year. I have only one gun. I did very well against the heavy guns with my LG/less brake. I actually won more relays and shootoffs in H/G than L/G. I don't care.....I REALLY want a new HG. After watching several of the top shooters in our sport shoot thier HG's, I am convinced that it is the way to go. What I found out last year was this.....My scores and groups in H/G were pretty much the same size as they were in the LG class!! Which says it actualy shot better W/O the break. I finaly smartened up at the last match last year and shot the L/G class W/O the break in the last shootoff and proceded to shoot a 2.XX 5 shot group, ....my best to date in comp. This was backed up with a good H/G group/score. This with 1200 rounds through a 300 WBY. My guess is that I didn't have the best load combo for my LG+ break. Or, maybe it was my hold......free recoil/LG vs hard hold/HG. Whatever, it shot better W/O the break. I guess I would like to see L/G's allowed to use their brakes in the H/G class.....simply because I will now need two different loads to compete it both classes. This will mean a bunch of extra load development for me. Oh well....I guess that the extra bench time will make me a better shooter.

Had I not deasperatly needed new BBLs for my L/G....I would already have a shiny new H/G. Oh well...maybe next year.;)

Again, just my .02 worth.

Tod
 
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One final thought...........

Allowing muzzle brakes on heavy guns is a policy of inclusion not exclusion. Not a result of whining or complaining by LG shooters. When we made the change at Williamsport it was really a non issue. We did not see a wholesale change over to muzzle brakes. In one case the rifle shot worse with a muzzle brake which comes as no surprise to many people.
Our purpose was to allow more shooters the opportunity to shoot- plain and simple.
 
oneflyer said:
Allowing muzzle brakes on heavy guns is a policy of inclusion not exclusion. Not a result of whining or complaining by LG shooters. When we made the change at Williamsport it was really a non issue. We did not see a wholesale change over to muzzle brakes. In one case the rifle shot worse with a muzzle brake which comes as no surprise to many people.
Our purpose was to allow more shooters the opportunity to shoot- plain and simple.
Click to expand...

This thread is not about people wanting to add brakes to their HG's!

No one that I see here is excluding or wanting to exclude shooting LG's in HG class. Quite simply, follow the existing rules, unscrew your brake, and sit down at a bench. Everyone knows the IBS rules when they start this game, all we are asking is for everyone to follow them instead of trying to change them to fit their particular situation!

Jeff in OH
 
The problem is how easy it is to change the rules. There is a club that puts on a groundhog match 100yd,300yd and 500yd. There are several different classes you can in. One of the best matches i have seen. They are located in Southfork Pa. When you go there the rules are laid out at the safety meeting, if you don't already know them. Like it has been said there at the match, we sell this kind of pizza here. If you want a different pizza, go down the road and get it. Basicly the rules do the change just because the shooters want them to. Years ago the shooters wanted sighter shots, that's not the way the game was intended to be played. So the sighter shots never happened. They lost a few shooters and gained alot more because of how they run their matches. Percision Shooting magizine just did an article on their Championship match in the Feb edition. I recently talk to some guys that use to shoot IBS 1,000yd matches al over the place and now don't shoot anything because of all the rule changes in the IBS. I suggest that the rules not be changed for a period of 3 years. Than the committees review the shooters suggestions and make adjustments as required.
 
Muzzle breaks!

Just a little insight in PA's desicion to allow breaks in the HG class,we first talked about allowing only guns with breaks that fit LG rules,but decided against it due to not wanting to weigh LG's on Sunday,so any gun that had a break was legal to shoot on Sunday.The point is if you don't want to shoot the HG class with your LG you don't have to.
As far as muzzle blast from LG's are you serious-I agree with Tom.

Doing well in HG with a LG ,It happens all the time,nothing new,but as Joel mentioned doing it consistantly is another thing(I don't want to hear it Danny,you could have a potato gun shooting 7" in no time!!)but once a LG shooter starts having sucess with or without a break it gets them looking harder into a HG rig.

My opinion -I would like to see muzzle breaks allowed in HG period ,I dont care if someone shoots a LG w/break beside my HG a wins,it wouldn't the first time.
Jeff- we know the rules!,making a change like this might help the HG class grow a little dont you think??It wouldn't be aimed at anything other than getting more shooters competing and enjoying themselves.
 
Did Some Research

Did a little bit of analytical research regarding muzzle blast and its effects on group sizes. I could only think of one real big boomer at the 08 Nats and did a comparison of how shooters that shot next to him fared in their other relays in LG. 3 out of 4 did as good or better in the relay with the big boomer in comparison to both the the group average for the relay and the shooters overall agg for the match. See the attached file for the data. So that being said, anyone know where I can pick up some 20mm brass to start necking down? :D
 

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  • Muzzle Blast.xls
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Is this????

"If the brass ain't flyin' your dying" Ashcroft? Muzzle blast certainly couldn't effect you!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Not me!

Every once in awhile I take some time and run em a lil slower. Even been known to make a hold once and awhile. However, in that relay I shot next to Scott with his Yogi, I waited until he was done before I shot my record string. :)

Now about that 20mm brass? Figure a 100# HG with a brake ought to be managable with a 375/20mm?
 
Matt,

I honestly believe that if a shooter wants to shoot HG with their LG, taking the brake off should not be an issue. Rob made some very valid points about affordability. I particularly don't really care but would vote against yet another rule change to have to deal with. You also run the risk of alienating existing shooters with rule changes, so IF you attracted new shooters, which I highly doubt, you could lose some too. Why is so hard to just shoot w/o a brake? If the recoil is a problem, then maybe the original cartridge selection should have been more of a consideration.

I think the horse is dead.....

Jeff in OH
 
Jeff in OH I think the horse is dead..... Jeff in OH[/QUOTE said:
If not, we can always shoot it with a 408/20mm, or a 375/50BMG. Muzzle blast alone will kill it! :D
Click to expand...
 
IMO if someone says they quit shooting IBS 1000 yd benchrest in the last couple years because of rules changes then they were looking for a reason to quit shooting anyway. We have not had major rules changes IMO. Get real, do some of you really think a shooter can be consistently competitive with a 30 magnum 17 lb rifle in heavy gun without a muzzle brake? NBRSA has always allowed muzzle brakes on heavy guns, now PA allows them, and IBS should consider this seriously. Unfortunately since very few of the members get to vote the majority opinion of the membership does not always rule. Maybe someday the general membership will get a say without having to be present at the January meeting in PA.
 
Jeff In Ohio

Jeff
How would changing the muzzlebrake rule alienate shooters making them quit the sport?
Lynn
 
Devil's Advocate

OK, in today's world just about the biggest thing going in a HG is a 338 Lapua Mag, or some improved variation of it. IMHO this is prolly because even at 70#, the recoil off one of these is still pretty stout (dont ask me how I know! lol). There may be a few HGs out there built on 416 Rigby or 408 CT parent cases as well.

Now we bring brakes to the HG class. Perhaps Danny can elaborate on what his experience shooting next to an unbraked 408 BAS HG was like (owner of that rifle had a brake that he removed) and then imagine what it would be like with the brake on.

I have yet to shoot NBRSA, probably would have some in 07 when Sarver said it was coming to Thunder Valley. However, one day I will make it to Byers for NBRSA Nats. What are the firing lines like at NBRSA facilities? Spacing between benches, permanent (steel roofed) shelters or temporary (vinyl roofed) ones?

In IBS it's not even an issue, yet. But folks need to hear both sides of the argument before it goes to the vote. They also need to be aware of what may come to a firing line near you if brakes pop up on a HG. Tim still has the pieces parts for his 408 BAS and I somewhat jest about a 20mm wildcat. Probably be more like a 375/50BMG :D. Anyway, food for thought.
 
Rob Ashcroft

Rob
Thanks for your reply.It took 4 pages but finaly we are at the problem.Nobody wants to sit next to a braked rifle.
At our club we move the braked rifles to one side of the benches so they can shoot together.
It doesn't seem to bother some shooters but other shooters seem to hate them.
At the FCSA 50 bmg matches the benches are double spaced and they generaly have more lady shooters there than I ever see at a NBRSA event.
Lynn
 
Lynn

Point I was making. Brakes on rifles as we know them today dont bother me, or most. They can be a little unpleasant to sit next to and can alter your firing process if they are of overbearing brake design or case capacity. But what happens when rifles escalate in case capacity? Can all clubs accomodate the braked rifles like your club does? What happens at big matches like Nationals?

All questions and scenarios that need to be thought out by the membership before making a knee jerk reaction because it is perceived that it will increase participation at the matches.

People will shoot as much as their budget and available time will allow and where they find enjoyable environments to shoot.

Could someone from Willamsport dive into this question? How many more shooters did you pick up in HG by allowing brakes? Not the total number of braked guns on the line, because some of them may have shot previously w/o the brake. The total number of new people that came to HG because they were now allowed to leave the brake on the LG?

Take care
Rob
 
How about putting Baffles between the benches, or something that will deaden the blast.That is going to be my suggestion when PA puts in new benches. If I'm around that long! And that doesn't mean Im against breakes.
 
I suggest to change the port angles of the brakes "ahead" or "forward".
Then start out by asking people to change their brake designs and over time making it mandatory.

Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran
 
Oh my

Touchy touchy.

If you would look, the data shows that muzzle blast doesnt have a perceivable effect on accuracy on 3 out of 4 shooters. However, the concern is what will come once brakes are allowed on HGs. Hey I'm all for it. There is data to show that muzzle blast doesnt affect accuracy. Get me a big ole 375/50BMG and really cheat the wind.

Typical narcissistic response to think everything,including this thread is about you. Oh well. Anyway, the 08 Nats was used because of a couple of reasons. One being that there was a large full sized 338 LM based case in LG. Second being it was a National match, and not a state match with nothing on the table, that the shooting field would be there with their A game. Lastly, there was data available for several shooters to compare at one match, not one shooter for each match in NC. BTW, how does including all shooters that shot next to the full sized 338LM based case make it about using you as an example? :confused:

What does your groups shot at Iowa have to do with how muzzle blast effects accuracy? The pertinent info in this discussion is how the shooters next to heavy muzzle blast perform in comparison to their own average and to the average of the entire relay. How did those shooters next to you fare? BTW, the blast from your rifle isnt much different then a 300Ackley so I really dont consider it a big boommer. The Yogi and Eric's Nawawkwa are another story. You crunch those numbers Einstein and bring same validity to the statement.

To my best knowledge this is an open discussion as to the pros and cons of allowing brakes in HG.
 
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Lynn

Many folks have started this sport with just a LG. I did not have a HG built right away, but as others have alluded to, I eventually got "hooked" and built a true HG.

We have all "paid our dues" so to speak with shooting LG in HG class without a brake, and IT IS MY OPINION that some of the folks that have done this may find it a little disheartening that we would cave to a rule change due to a few who want to change the rles to suit their situation. No one is stopping people from taking their brake off and shooting in HG but some feel the need to push the issue.

Also my opinion, posts like #58 do more to alienate new shooters than anything and is more than likely why numbers have declined, at least in Ohio. Even if I was not "oficially banned" from Plainfield (I saved the post for validation if anyone wants to see that tirade), I would not shoot there any more. I go to matches to have fun, and it is just no fun to shoot there any longer. I will support the WV clubs first, and will make road trips to NC and IA this year.

This is all I have to say about this subject. If anyone wants first hand experience, I will be glad to sit down beside them behind my 338 Lapua LG...we'll have a "blast" that's for sure.


Jeff in OH

FOR THE RECORD HERE IS THE ORIGINAL POST #58:

http://home.roadrunner.com/~jswb1990/Post58.pdf

What a coward...post crap like this here and go and delete it.
 
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Rob Ashcraft. said:
Could someone from Willamsport dive into this question? How many more shooters did you pick up in HG by allowing brakes? Not the total number of braked guns on the line, because some of them may have shot previously w/o the brake. The total number of new people that came to HG because they were now allowed to leave the brake on the LG?
Click to expand...
Rob,

As I said above in my first post, there is NO increase in shooters by allowing brakes. Zero. We did have people leave brakes on, but those people were going to shoot regardless of having the brake on or not and had shot plenty of matches with the brakes off with no complaint.

It really makes no difference with the rule or without. Most serious shooters already know the statistics show unbraked guns shoot better. If they want the brakes, whatever, go stick a brake on. Only on occasion will you see a braked cannon that causes issues for someone else, and that only matters if the wrong person is on the next bench. If it's me, you can shoot a braked 50 and I'll do my damnedest to beat ya! I just don't care. Unfortunately, some folks do mind, and that's their decision. That's why we vote on such stuff.

If you stop in at Williamsport, you'll see that really nothing changed other than the rulebook. Good HG's still beat the hell outa LG's! :D Good unbraked HG's beat the hell outa braked ones! And if a guy wants to win, he better build a real HG.
 
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