measuring woes....ball powder

A

alinwa

oft dis'd member
Well I went and bought a Chargemaster tonight.....

Here's the thing. I've got thousands of rounds to load ranging from 26gr to over 100grains. A lot of it hunting stuff.

I know from experience that powders like H4350 WILL vary by 1/2gr no matter how much practice one has and stuff like 4831 is even worse. I did a run of RL-17 tonight and found that it varies by plus or minus two tenths for a spread of almost 1/2 grain and that's in less than 100 throws with a grounded powder measure. Even the really fine stuff like 322 or 130/133 varies by 1/4 grain on a good day. I've resigned myself to the fact that stick powders simply must be weighed and trickled for accuracy.

Now all this time ball powder has been my "ace in the hole" for hunting stuff..... I figured that for hunting type loads it would throw right on the money and it comes in a spectrum of "burn rates" just like stick. I haven't spent much time with ball powder but figured (operative word) I could get it to work.

Well I just spent a week with ball powders--- H380, Ramshot Magnum, Magpro etc. The stuff shoots just fine BUT, to my horror IT METERS NO BETTER THAN STICK!!!!!

This was a complete surprise.......

I remember trying all sorts of ball powders years ago... Win, AA, H380 etc.... Dunno why but I never really liked it.... But I had this "remembrance" that it threw perfectly consistent charges.

WRONG!!!

I worked up loads throwing, then weighing charges just like I do with extruded powder and noticed the variation but was doing runs of three.... put it off to sloppiness on the crank. Finally I set everything aside and just threw/recycled charges for 1/2hr......

:(

Ball powder, the stuff that runs like beach sand, varies just as much as stick.

!!!!

Kicked that theory right in the head....

I sure hope this Chargemaster is accurate enough that I can prime a case, seat a bullet and grab another charge in some kindofa' cycle or I'm gonna' be spending some seriously long nights!

I think I can manually throw/trickle-to-wt charges just as fast or faster than the Chargemaster..... but that's ALL I'm doing when I do it manually.....

Wish me luck for the New Year??

:):)

al
 
Here is how I do my Chargemaster.

I set up the seating die and press right next to the Chargemaster.
After the Chargemaster has filled the Powder Pal Funnel Pan. I dump the powder into a case and then start the Chargemaster refilling the pan. As it refills the pan I seat a bullet into the filled case and put the loaded round into the box. Within a few seconds of placing the loaded round into the box the Chargemaster is done filling the pan and on it goes.
There is no way I could trickle as fast as I can do this.
Except for maybe the -06 size cases which take about 10 seconds longer than a PPC case to fill.

Ted
 
I get way better results than you do Al... using a Bonanza Benchrest Powder Measure... been using it since about 1971-72. It has always out performed the RCBS measure.

I'll do a test with 4350 and a ball powder in a day or two and post the accuracy results.

Dennis.
 
One thing to remember

with a Chargemaster is to wait for the scale to weigh the charge the second time. I must say, I haven't had the same good results with the straw mod. I have found more over-throws whilst using the straw mod. I have done the re-programing to speed the machine up.


I checked my Chargemaster against my Acculab scale back in the late summer and found my Chargemaster reported the charges I threw .1 lighter than the Aculab but it agreed with the Chargemaster in terms of consistency.

Probably the only accurate way to make a proper judgment is to use a labratory scale to proof the results of the measure, whatever it is. Trust is a big issue with regard to scales for me.

AND, contrary to what I read here, I have yet to find the node that will forgive even a one tenth of a grain diffence in powder.

It becomes a matter of what one will accept as Good Enough for their group sizes. I want the smallest hole I can find and from the 12 or more years of testing I have done, I have always been able to see differences in groups shot with .1 differences in powder charges.

We won't get into seat depth right now :)
 
Last edited:
Al,

Hope you like your Chargemaster. Mine sure has been a god-send.

As for the ball powders and how they measure... I think a lot of the hype about ball powders throwing 'perfect' comes from the use of conventional reloading scales that read +/- 0.1gr. When that was what I all I had... yep, ball powders threw 'ded nutz'. Now with a much nicer Sartorious GD-503 lab scale... well, lets say that while ball powders still throw considerably better than stick (like half the ES or better) they certainly don't throw 'perfect' - more like +/- 0.1-0.12 based on my numbers.

YMMV,

Monte
 
test away test away, test away all :)

I've spent the last year dropping powder through my Harrell and trickling to weight...... discouraging.

here's a sample string...a very good one....looking for 60gr:

59.88
59.99
59.85
60.14 high
59.94
59.91
60.10
60.01
59.94
59.98
59.74 low
60.08
59.85
59.87
60.10
59.84
59.92


Now you can apply numbers and averages and means to this string and show that it's "within +- a tenth better than 95% of the time"......

And here's a more typical string, this is RL-17

59.95
59.87
59.98
59.92
60.04
59.78 low
59.94
59.76
59.80
60.15 high
etc
etc. . . . . .37 variance, VERY typical of a midsized powder.

And TO ME the only number that's relevant is ES.

Others will be satiated by the numbers, using gunk like"means" and "trends" and "SD" to make it look good....

And if I kept stringing numbers for 50rds I'd find ES of closer to .40or.45



Here's where I lost it......


I've gotten SO BLOODY GOOD with the Harrell that I can spot trends and massage the thing to my will.... I can be dropping/weighing and see the trend going light or heavy and subconsciously dink the hannle and MAKE it throw closer. In fact it's hard NOT to do this, the brain is a wonderful tool. I can generally keep throws within the "+- a tenth" parameter with certain powders AS LONG AS I'M MONITORING/WEIGHING EVERY CHARGE ........ undistracted. Small grained stick powders will meter this way.

But large grain stick will run out to twice this no matter what.....

AND..... here's the kicker..... get distracted, walk over and turn the heat up, take a phone call, go pee, WHATEVER, turn away and turn back and you've got to throw/weigh 5 charges just to get your groove back.

AND YOUR GROOVE WILL ALWAYS TREND....... If you're monitoring by weighing every charge you can catch it. But left to it's own devices your groove will trend until you're throwing consistently BUT 1/4 GRAIN HEAVIER than you were an hour ago.

Bottom line is........ (IMO :):))

Coarse stick like 4831 WILL vary up to a full grain depending on how you work the handle.

Medium grain like H4350 will vary by 3/4 grain.

Fine powder, H322/VV133, will vary 1/2 grain.





And the old dependable BALL POWDER will also vary a full HALF GRAIN depending on how you stroke the handle. Best I can get is 1/4 grain, the old standard "plus or minus a tenth 95% of the time"....

This is what "plus or minus a tenth 95% of the time" really means!!!

It means 1/4 grain of powder.

And now we factor in taps..... and double and triple taps......and slips and slides and bumps......


The real question isn't "how good can we do under constant monitoring" ... the REAL question is.... "HOW BAD will my blips be."

I shoot hot loads.

Thanks to weighing with a good scale single digit ES has become an achievable goal......slow.... but doable...... and ONLY with a good scale and constant monitoring of every single charge........ and fuh'GEDDABOUT coming back the next day and just grooving into the same setting. And fuh'GEDDABOUT loading/shooting/loading/shooting a group at a time, walking from thrower to bench...... Unless every charge is WEIGHED they are essentially unrelated.

And even if you ARE groovin' to a long beat.... if you forget to "triple slide with a tap" or you realize that your "slooow upstroke" has gained speed??? You're screwed.

And the guy who's "going up or down a clik" at the match???? Tailchasing often as not.... reacting to perceived "conditions" that may well be OPERATOR conditions! (I fully expect to be severely chastized for this statement... fire away :) )

IN MY OPINION, if you're playing around within a grain or two of the top (and who doesn't ? ;)) you must weigh every charge.


A string of hot (SAFE!) loads with "the occasional 1/2 grain high" possibility is a trap, an accident waiting.


Hence my purchase.

hope the bloody thing can be tweaked to under a tenth..... but in the meantime with a scale setting under EVERY CHARGE I can be assured that I'll not bump the hannle funky and wreck brass.

or worse

I laid in my cot last night and speculated on sodey straws and sealing wax, sausages and string, and homeprewed coarse-screw spouts for the tweaking of the trickle..... and I haven't even fired the unit up!! Actually, it's acclimating. I brought it in, made a spot for it and turned it on lasterday eve..... today's the day ;)


whis't me luck?


al
 
I have good results +/- .1 with ball powder, but it does require good technique and a very consistent level of powder in the measure.

As always, if you want it done right, +/- .0, weigh and trickle EVERY charge.

Actually, weigh and trickle, then chronograph, then do again with different charge weights close to your desired weight and see if the weigh and trickle is even worth the effort.

With the right powder for the cartridge, once IN the window, a +/- .2 won't change anything.
 
Sometimes the best measure for one type of powder is not the best for another. Try another design, and keep the technique simple and slow.
 
Initial Impressions....

OK, it's been 20 minutes and I fiddled with the diddler a liddle......

I'm sorely disappointed, not impressed anyway.

The scale on the CM is a rudimentary piece of crap. It doesn't actually read to +- .100, it rounds to the nearest tenth and reads to one decimal place.......Here's a real-world demonstration of it's accuracy right out of the blocks. THIS IS ALSO WELL WITHIN THE LISTED DESIGN SPEC'S!!! I realize this....

CM 59.0 = MMX scale 59.13
CM 59.0 = MMX 59.10
CM 59.0 = MMX 58.89

Raw data, y'all may (some above already have ;)) interpret it differently.

BUT, there's more.......:D

The scale on the CM is incapable of resolving to +- a tenth. It doesn't LIE, it's just insufficient. Three tenths is MINIMUM for it to register consistently. For instance 70.15 can read SAME as 69.85 (due to it's internal rounding logic?) I tested this using weights while calibrating/resolving with my MMX 123 and then by trickling powder...... and remember, at this level vagrant breezes can fool wit' ya'.........even in a sealed room like I'm......

This of course with only a few throws..... one hopes it'll improve. :) with modification.

This is also MY assessment, MY opinion.....

Is this important????

Well, probably not to most point blank guys....



Is a quarter grain important?


To me, YES!

al
 
The Japanese believe

if you don't look at danger it won't hurt you. Perhaps this tricles over into dropping loads. All puns intended. :)
 
Pete Wass said:
with a Chargemaster is to wait for the scale to weigh the charge the second time. I must say, I haven't had the same good results with the straw mod. I have found more over-throws whilst using the straw mod. I have done the re-programing to speed the machine up.


I checked my Chargemaster against my Acculab scale back in the late summer and found my Chargemaster reported the charges I threw .1 lighter than the Aculab but it agreed with the Chargemaster in terms of consistency.

Probably the only accurate way to make a proper judgment is to use a labratory scale to proof the results of the measure, whatever it is. Trust is a big issue with regard to scales for me.

AND, contrary to what I read here, I have yet to find the node that will forgive even a one tenth of a grain diffence in powder.

It becomes a matter of what one will accept as Good Enough for their group sizes. I want the smallest hole I can find and from the 12 or more years of testing I have done, I have always been able to see differences in groups shot with .1 differences in powder charges.

We won't get into seat depth right now :)
Click to expand...

Pete,

First, let me say congrats to you on another great finish in SSOY. Your consistency in your finishes (not to mention your skill as a competitor) certainly lends credence to the value of your loading methods.

Second, I agree with your assessment on the Chargemaster results with the soda straw conversion. I get just an many, or more, overthrows with it as without.

As to small variations in charge weight and seating depth......, well I was lucky this year :D. I went through four different lots and weights (two grain spread) of bullets, and two lots of powder, and never changed the powder weight or seating depth for either of my rifles. Every time I made a change in bullets or powder there didn't seem to be any decrease in accuracy, so I just stayed with what was working. On the other hand, I use a good bit of land engagement, which makes seating depth a bit less important ;). Possibly I was giving up a bit of potential accuracy, so maybe next year I will try to be a little more proactive in my loading technique :).

See you soon,
Jim
 
another update

Well...... I'm satisfied that this is the best rough-in dispensing method to date.

Closer throws than the 6 throwers I've worked with.

And I'm satisfied that it's SAFER for bulk loading. No chance of bridging or otherwise getting a 1/2gr overthrow.

back to work

al
 
Thanks Jim

I appreciate your kind words.


I think hard jamming will cure a lot of the ills I encounter sometimes. I find the way I go at things I need to be very precise and there is also the fact that some barrels will digest about aything one stuffs into them. I have had one or two but I have found that most of the barrels I have currently aren't of the latter quality. Also, HV barrels tune easier than HBR barrels most of the time.

I shot at the range of a friend this week and found that the tuners worked miricles for the two rifles I was shooting. Another wrinkle to be considered.
 
Al, I don't know what the problem is in the large variations with thrown charges of spherical powders. With stick powders, even the fairly fine stuff like H322, N133, and the like I am unable to get the ±0.1 gr variations that some claim with either a Harrells or Redding BR-30. No difference between the two measures either.

With some spherical powders that have a lot of variation in particle size the variation is ±0.2 or more gr, but with the really fine (and apparently uniformly sized) stuff like Ramshot TAC and X-Terminator ±0.1 gr thrown charges don't seem to be a problem even with a shaky old coot like me wielding the measure handle.

With the Chargemaster the problem I've found is that it needs recalibration fairly frequently which can be a pain in the caboose when doing high volume loading for live varmint (prairie dog) loads.

Some stuff I've read has indicated that ANYONE can learn to throw ANY powder ±0.1 gr, and if they can't they're not paying attention or no dang good. Maybe I'm both, but there's a BIG difference between ± 0.1 gr and ± 0.5 or more which is about the best I can do with even H4895 not to mention IMR 4350 or 4831. A lot more than I can attribute to my lack of attention or lack of coordination.
 
Al,

I've been using the Chargemaster to dispense charges for a couple years now. Depending on the mood I'm in and what my goals are, I may use charges straight from the Chargemaster into the case, or I may set it 0.1gr light and trickle up with a few kernels from a spoon into the pan on a better scale (VIC-123 before, now a GD503).

Based on my tests... repeated with several powders such as Varget & RE-15... *my* Chargemaster, despite its handicaps, does dispense inside +/- 0.1g the majority of the time. If I had to set outer bounds... the numbers I saw (with the better GD503 scale) were probably +/- 0.15gr max, and the vast majority of the time well inside 0.1gr. Say... 95% (2SD) or better inside 0.1, and 99+% (3SD) inside 0.15gr.

For the most part... I can't tell the difference with a chronograph over a 20-30rd string between weighing with the Chargemaster and weighing on the lab scale. Heck, I'm not really sure I can tell the difference on target at distance. Then again, I don't shoot BR, so what do I know? :rolleyes:
 
Al,

I felt your pain on this subject for a good while. In the end I had two and sold them both and went back to the trickle and Acculab.

But, one thing I did learn is that an inexpensive noise filter (usually a magnet) around the power supply cord does indeed help. You can get one at Radio Shack or if you can't find one then I will dig around and send you one of my old ones. You might be surprised.

In the end I divided my reloading into two categories. One is benchrest style where I measure to the hundredth. The other is what I call the "sloppy but I don't care" which means I am dropping safe loads out of a Dillion for pistol or sub gun shooting. When I drew that line and accepted it my frustrations went away.
 
Welll....... I loaded and shot until about 7:00PM and I did have a ball with the Chargemaster.

It's POURING rain mixed with sleet, kinda' half-heartedly melting the snow from our "winter storm" which had the metro paralyzed for 35hrs..... so I spent half my time making waterproof wraps for the chrono's and target butt but in the end the drifting curtains of rain made a perty effective nighttime windflag! My only problem was buildup on the chrony shroud. It was s'veriously NODDING in the wind by the time I wrapped up. I hadda' CHASE it to hit the hole.....

But the Chargemaster was a joy to use.

It's very well thought out. Nothing stupid nor hard to handle, obviously the designer is a reloader. Hopper to drain, electrical interface to wind shroud, the unit flat out works, well.

It's as accurate as the design CAN be.

It's easily cleaned/maintained....

It's bloody SLOW!!!


I mean SLOOWWWWW, like watching grass grow for a cawffee junkie like I'm.....I can literally beat it three-to-one manually BUT.... I can do other stuff while the CM is in a state of omphaloskepsis. My room is poured concrete floored and rolling office chair..... I scoot around like sci-fi.

But changing charges is unbelievably fast. NO MORE craning to see the underside of the Harrell and then clicking back and forth like an earthworm trying to find his burrow....only to dribble a halfspurt on the downstroke.

punch in the grains and hit the go button, done.

wow

Also, nor more chance of bumping (BTDT) sliding (BTDTT) or over-riding the detent on the measure. No more OOOPS :eek: "I forgot to lock the scale" and no more "tap-tap-tap.... oooops!..... the tapping rotated the knob on the Harrell!!" (((((Here's a problem..... The Harrell may or may not benefit from tapping on the intake stroke but it absolutely NEEDS to be hammered on the discharge to overcome bridging issues..... this CAN and DOES occur and is freakin' DAN'rous...))))

Safety issues. Accommodated by weighing each and every charge.

So, it worked.

Tony, I have isolated power supplies...... I have lots of stereo gear, three DLP projectors and two wireless internet networks running. And cordless phones, VOX and rad remotes etc.... The power in this room is dedicated and clean. My electronic scales don't float nor nuttin' in fact I just leave 'em on under glass and when I walk by they're gener'ly snakeyes. Also important is that the scales are on 2" thick benchtops bolted to the concrete slab and the three units are all on separate benches. My benches are isolated so's I get no feedback from press-to-scale nor suchlike. The problem isn't power it's design. The jog feature on the unit is sublime, and works flawlessly. I can't picture an improvement on the mechanism although I am building a fold-back drop spout of larger radius to help the poor girl drop her load more smoothly.

Also, while the scale IS crude, it can't be improved with this loading system. And since it's sneaking up from only one side the ACTUAL error rate is nearly halved. It never reads 'wayyy over but routinely is over a tenth under. I'm finding about 15-16 tenths to be in the ballpark, and up to 6 tenth's over weight. I feel that the rating of "plus or minus 2 tenths 95% of time" is accurate. AND ALWAYS LOW!!!! (This is important to me, I AM a Safety Geek...)

Also, by watching it I can sneak the pan off and weigh it on the other scale.... I'm convinced that with two or three pans I could go faster than my old way and less tweezing.

all in all I'm satisfied.

It's even slower than I expected but I can hear that silly beep all over the shop already :)

I'll give it a Dickie Good Stuff rating.

al
 
Larry Elliott said:
Al, I don't know what the problem is in the large variations with thrown charges of spherical powders. With stick powders, even the fairly fine stuff like H322, N133, and the like I am unable to get the ±0.1 gr variations that some claim with either a Harrells or Redding BR-30. No difference between the two measures either.

With some spherical powders that have a lot of variation in particle size the variation is ±0.2 or more gr, but with the really fine (and apparently uniformly sized) stuff like Ramshot TAC and X-Terminator ±0.1 gr thrown charges don't seem to be a problem even with a shaky old coot like me wielding the measure handle.

With the Chargemaster the problem I've found is that it needs recalibration fairly frequently which can be a pain in the caboose when doing high volume loading for live varmint (prairie dog) loads.

Some stuff I've read has indicated that ANYONE can learn to throw ANY powder ±0.1 gr, and if they can't they're not paying attention or no dang good. Maybe I'm both, but there's a BIG difference between ± 0.1 gr and ± 0.5 or more which is about the best I can do with even H4895 not to mention IMR 4350 or 4831. A lot more than I can attribute to my lack of attention or lack of coordination.
Click to expand...


Larry I was probably unclear but your numbers actually agree closely with mine. I gener'ly see +- a tenth with ball powder BUT..... that's only MOST of the time :) every now and again one slips through....

JUST like a nice fine stick powder........

Now the long stick stuff???? There ain't a measure made that I'd throw heavy weights with! Not within a grain of hot anyways.... not for accuracy, for safety alone...

And for long range BR I'm convinced that staying within three KERNELS of powder is mandatory.


al
 
Good to know I'm not the only one that beep annoys the heck out of. You do know you can turn that *off*, right? After loading up 600 rounds for 2007 SOA/FCNC I don't think I've ever had the beep activated since.

The speed thing was kind of a bummer for me, especially since I'd bought mine based largely on the test/review on 6mmBR.com, which claimed something like 8-12 seconds for roughly 42gr IMR4064. I shoot a *lot* of .308 win, so hearing that I about dislocated my arm getting the wallet out to order one. Imagine my 'joy' upon finding that reality for ~46.5-46.8gr Varget was more like 30 seconds if you got lucky, 60 if you were unlucky, and about 45 seconds on average. About the only saving grace was that it was *almost* enough time for me to finish trickling the last few kernels on the Acculab.

The simplest way to speed it up is to set one of your powder measures about 0.5-1gr low, throw the charge in the pan, put it on the Chargemaster and hit 'Dispense' (auto-dispense mode won't work unless it starts from zero). The other option is to use the McD straw trick, and tweak the motor speed parameters (published all over the 'net, much to RCBS's displeasure I'm sure) to bring things down to the 15-20 second range with pretty good reliabilty (occasional over-shoot from a powder clump, simple to toss back in the hopper and start over).

At that speed I can prime a couple cases, dump the charge down the funnel, put the pan back, let it zero and auto-dispense while I prime a few more cases. When I'm finished priming I go back and start seating bullets. By the end I'm still waiting on it but at least the time went a little faster ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top