Maximum accurate barrel diameter for Heavy Gun

Actually...

... I have always considered the ocean to be a bit damp, Charles. And Todd, yes that HG I shot in the Nationals since 1999, is the one with the 1.85" tube. The gun has always shot better than I could & I am going to miss shooting it when I start up again, ( hopefully in 2014). I even used it to set an IBS record in 2005 for the 10 match group aggregate, which some cheesehead later broke a couple of years later.:rolleyes:

On Matt Kline, I do know that he is a very competitive shooter and has been since I have played this game. At the next Nationals, watch him and a few others from the PA1000 club. I guarantee that you might pick up on something that you might want to incorporate into your own routine.
I have done this over the entire time that I was competing, and not just the PA shooters but the NC boys also. In 2009, I watched a lot of the Iowa shooters also & filed a few things away

I do agree that most of the aggs & awards in HG are going to be handed to true HGs, but there are going to be a few talented individuals like Hoover, Schatz, Forbes, and so on who can be competitive with one gun. Remember the old saying, "beware the man who only has one gun, he probably knows how to use it".

I think this thread was started to answer a question on the maximum barrel diameter for accuracy. My answer is on average vs. price would be about 1.5". You can tune any barrel, but that is on the shooter and the time & dedication that you want to devote to the project. That will determine how much you will win in this game. The components alone will not will it for you without previous proper planning and preparation. To win a 16 minute relay, you will have to spend at least 8 hrs. on the average in preparation. are you ready for that? if not stop now and save yourself some cash.

Again, my 2 cents worth, maybe a dime.

Danny
 
jim1K said:
Tod, Al did………. jim
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Yep...he did..a bunch of years ago. He got sick of lugging it (Maxi Tacker) around and came up with the system he used up till last year. His ST 1000 HG is, or was, up for sale on 6br.

My thoughts are that he is a better shooter now, and how would he do with a tru HG.

On the other hand, Danny hit it on the head with the "beware of the shooter with one gun......
 
Tod, As you get older and hopefully better, stuff seems to get heaver. I never seemed to justify a heavy gun, Reade only shoots light. IBS. i still only shoot light in both but my point is, i was never i felt to be completive till i started freezing the barrels and 4" 100's started to happen. 2-3" 50's in light and both barrels are average in the wind,but they are absolutely the best shooting barrels i ever had. I had 4 more frozen for this year, and hopefully one will be a hummer. Tracking is a very big part of the picture,it has to come back in the box… jim
 
1000 Yard B/R formal matches @ Williamsport started long before some organizations decided to do it. Only HG (as we describe things today) existed then, weights of guns went from about 14 pounds to over 100 pounds. It wasn't called Heavy Gun then just 1000 yard benchrest.
 
The heavy barrels being used in heavy gun do have an advantage over light guns being used in heavy gun, results show this just about at every range. Just last year I thought I would use my light gun at the world open in the heavy gun class as well. The gun shot extremely well in light gun but just could not compete against the well tuned heavy guns. The heavy guns were shooting low 4's and very few light guns cracked the top 20 places overall. I'll take a true heavy barrel for heavy gun any day over a light gun being used in heavy gun, I like those odds.
 
Tod was reading here about Matt Kline just shooting one small group if you were there every match like myself and saw some of Matt's targets, You wouldn't be saying one small group! He has had targets with one or two shots out that would make most men "CRY" that were under his record! Matt is a true competitor,and has always pointed out to me thing I was doing wrong, Even though he loves busting my B#$&. Williamsport is one of the toughest places in the country to shoot that is why when the boys from PA. travel they do so well.There are not just one or two rifles at that club, that on any given day can break the record, there are a lot of them.
Also my thoughts On 1.450 Barrels that are used by most 1000 yard shooters. Don't think you need anything bigger, try a tuner! I myself started shooting 1000 yard with a Heavy Gun and will do so till I can't carry it to the line anymore. The time is getting close!

Joe Salt
 
Joe Salt said:
Tod was reading here about Matt Kline just shooting one small group if you were there every match like myself and saw some of Matt's targets, You wouldn't be saying one small group! He has had targets with one or two shots out that would make most men "CRY" that were under his record! Matt is a true competitor,and has always pointed out to me thing I was doing wrong, Even though he loves busting my B#$&. Williamsport is one of the toughest places in the country to shoot that is why when the boys from PA. travel they do so well.There are not just one or two rifles at that club, that on any given day can break the record, there are a lot of them.
Also my thoughts On 1.450 Barrels that are used by most 1000 yard shooters. Don't think you need anything bigger, try a tuner! I myself started shooting 1000 yard with a Heavy Gun and will do so till I can't carry it to the line anymore. The time is getting close!

Joe Salt
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Joe,

I never said that Matt only shot one small group. Like I said, I don't know Matt. The only thing I ever heard Mentioned about Matt was an above post listing Matt's world record.....which is......"one small group". This "one small group" was the bassis, or at least so it seemed, to argue why you don't need a HG to be compeditive in the HG class. It was all that was mentioned..."one small group". I simply was stating that one small group is just that...and how compeditors are doing day in and day out is a better indicator. I (now) understand that Matt is truly a world class shooter, and is is compeditive day in and day out with his LG. But that is only one shooter.....a way above average one at that. As a whole, who has the smaller aggs....the LG boys or the HG boys?

But.... I NEVER said that Matt only shot "one small group"!! Don't put words in my mouth..especially when it makes me sound like I am disparaging another shooter. That isn't my thing. I am pretty sure that I would be "stalking" him every time I had a chance!!

Thanks,
Tod

PS...Matt...if you ever do catch me stalking you , please do not press charges....I'm just trying to learn!!
 
Tod Soeby said:
So...he shot one good group. Good on him...everyone I know would KILL for a world record group. But it is just that ...one group.

I am just guessing here, but I would bet that most of the top HG finishers at the national 1000 yard events shoot true heavy guns. In 600, not as true, but there are still lots of true heavies there, also.

Again, just a guess on my part, but I'll take on any bets. :D
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Isn't this what you wrote? All I'm saying is if you were at The PA. club every match like I am, it would open your eyes to see 80-100 shooters every match not just a one day shoot at the Nationals. And I did not try and be Snotty with you I was just stating a point and I'm all grown up and have forgot more about 1000 yard shooting than you know. [So how is that for being snotty!]


Joe Salt
 
I think you guys are missing the point. If i can get a light gun into the low 4's" and a lot of hundreds by freezing the HV.barrel it should work super on a 1.450 barrel. If you want to talk aggs. check the VA. state shoot and see what won Heavy group. This does work,some will say it doesn't but check with some i shoot with and ask them……….. jim
 
Sorry Tod thought that was you but it was Stool whom ever he is! So Stool if you think there are just one or two good guns out there you need to grow up! Go to a real match.

Joe Salt
 
Growing up

Joe,

I know you and I say just like myself you will never GROW UP. I prefer it that way, otherwise why would we be playing with these toys the way we do.

And to Jim, Todd, and the rest in the discussion, I would bet that if you were to examine the actual data of barrel diameters overall in the HG stats, the heavier ones would be winning more. At the current time, I have not been shooting for the last 3 years, but I believe due to past experience and the fact that the larger barrels are not effected by the heat of 10+ rounds during a relay, as the smaller ones are, what I am stating would hold true.

To Stool, please don't throw out statements like "grow up" without an adult point of view. It does not do any good.

Danny
 
Braggery it is not

Stool,

I do not know what your experience is in 1000 yard BR, but I have had a few chances to shoot with the guys & gals at Williamsport. It is one of the toughest ranges to shoot at, along with Hawks Ridge. Conditions are trickier than any other that I have shot at. I remember on early morning relay that no one picked on a condition change when the flags did not even move at all. All competitors ended up one side of the paper. Some were lucky that the target is 5 feet wide.
And the shooters that shoot there are some of the best in the country. Some years ago I felt pretty good just making the top 20 in the 2 gun overall. And when I was competing, I got used to winning my share of the awards.
Joe is stating facts and anyone who competes in this discipline that does not agree that with the above statement(s) has their head in the sand or another hole I should not mention.
This is not to say that the other clubs do not have their share of talent also, as they do. The great state of NC sends plenty of shooters up each year to try and kick some butt and usually makes a statement while there. And to clarify things, no I am not and never have been a member of the PA1000 Club, just relaying the honest facts, because that is what bears the weight of any discussion. And I have plenty of experience to back up what I am saying.

While talking about being childish, why not use your name instead of hiding behind an alias. Otherwise why should anyone pay attention to anything you have to say while on this forum. Joe made the suggestion that you attend a real match, and it is good advice.

Danny
 
Turmoil

Jay,

No turmoil here, Joe, Todd, and Jim are accomplished shooters. I just don't like to see someone come into a discussion and throw out insults like "grow up", when Joe was stating facts. In the 1000 yard BR game 85% of the competitors are the kind of people that I would personally stand up for. The other 15% maybe not so much. Joe is part of the former.

When I got into the 1000 yard game back in '98, I quickly learned who to listen to and who not to. Joe was one of the ones that other people were listening to. I still don't think I could spell his last name if asked to on a moments notice, but I don't need to either.;)

Again, I am just wondering if the person who started the thread, got anything out of it.

Danny
 
HOLD ER......

First off, I hope I never came across as anything but profesional (for lack of a better word) and actually a little self depracating. In fact, I tried a few times on a couple of my posts to hit the smilly face button,, but it didn't show up on target ...er..on the post. ;) ..NOW IT SHOWES UP!!!

I have done nothing but praise Matt after it came to light that he shoots LOTS of small groups. Before that all I said is that one small group is not an indicator all things small, and that the National events and season long aggs are a far better indicator.....not a single 2.xx inch 100 score....which was all I had to go on. On every post i tried to give my opinion on the OP, which is...I believe that the true HG has an advantage over the LG. Again, it is my opinion, as there are no records regarding weather the guns used were LG's or true HGs.

I am pretty sure that my posts didn't come across as "snotty", but if that is how it was taken, I apolagize!!

Shoot strait,

Tod Soeby
 
Joe Salt said:
Tod was reading here about Matt Kline just shooting one small group if you were there every match like myself and saw some of Matt's targets, You wouldn't be saying one small group! He has had targets with one or two shots out that would make most men "CRY" that were under his record! Matt is a true competitor,and has always pointed out to me thing I was doing wrong, Even though he loves busting my B#$&. Williamsport is one of the toughest places in the country to shoot that is why when the boys from PA. travel they do so well.There are not just one or two rifles at that club, that on any given day can break the record, there are a lot of them.
Also my thoughts On 1.450 Barrels that are used by most 1000 yard shooters. Don't think you need anything bigger, try a tuner! I myself started shooting 1000 yard with a Heavy Gun and will do so till I can't carry it to the line anymore. The time is getting close!

Joe Salt
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Stool it seems to me that you probably never shot 1000 yard Benchrest. All Joe said is there are more than one gun that could break the record on any given day. There are a lot of factors involved that putting 10 shots together in a small group is tough. Our range has rolling valleys and the wind can go more then one direction at various places. Then there is light changes, thermals and the swamp we shoot over. These are just a few of the factors that have to come together to make this happen. Many times 8 or 9 shots there but not 10. A lot of really good guns though. You are welcome to come try it some time. You can shoot 2 matches without being a member and also can come to the World Open and win a lot of valuable prizes.
 
The guy wanted to know about the size of the barrel for a heavy gun. I stated that by freezing my light gun barrels that i can compete with the heaves now. If he has a 1.450 barrel i would have it frozen and it should be able to compete with ones of a larger diameter. Heat doesn't make the LG. barrels walk, so it maybe the thing to do now, thats 12.50 a record and money well spent……. jim
 
Danny glad to hear your getting back in the game, we need more good shooters like yourself. Like we haven't got enough, Still think the 1.450 is more efficient. No matter how good I shoot there seems to be one that will just beat me out, I only won one shoot off this year. seconds and thirds don't count!
Tod I think it was stool that got me really going with grow up! So "STOOL" is that your real name, cause it sounds like another product I now by the same name. You mentioned Virginia is that where you shoot.
If that is where there having the Nationals this year, there will be a few of us that will be there!

Joe Salt
 
Original Post...

I am having a Heavy Gun built for 1000yd BR and fly shoots in Australia. The barrel block is set up for 1.450" barrels, but could be machined bigger.
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How much bigger? Are you talking 1.5 versus 1.4, or could you go all the way up to 2-3 inches without upsetting the stock?

Is there any point of no gains at a certain size?
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As far as I know, no. This not only from the testing of people like Danny Brooks & Jerry Stiller & Joe Salt (who might have reached a different conclusion, but he *did the work.*) It also comes from the good theoretical engineers, like Mann and Harold Vaughn.

But there are almost always compromises, and the bigger the barrel usually the greater the compromise. Moreover, the gains aren't an "always" matter. By that I mean they're on the small side, so a "really good" 1.450 barrel will beat a "pretty good" 2-inch barrel. Just what anyone would expect. A larger barrel is not an automatic formula for success.

...but might be too stiff to tune or regulate the vertical out of a barrel.
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Depends on what you think causes vertical. There is the modeling work by Varmint Al, but that assumes (1) barrels flex significantly, and (2) barrels are a single cantilevered beam. There have been a number of rifles with barrels built on a double cantilevered beam model. With tension, Pendergraft in the U.S, Tony Z and Jeff Rogers in Oz. With compression, Tooley in the States (that I know of), and using neither tension or compression, Phil Jusilus in the States, who essentially put a cats head (aka spider), via a 3-inch diameter pipe, on each end of the barrel.

All worked, and about equally well. And in spite of the theory, with a large enough pipe, all shot essentially round groups; tuning just shrank/expanded the size of the group.

For a smaller, single cantilevered beam model, Vaughn pointed out you can just change the location of the barrel in the block a little bit.

But I sense that you're not after experimenting, testing, but are rather looking for a sure-fire, "always better" answer. And if that's the case, I'd say the answer is no. Use the 1.4-inch barrel. Remember the compromises.

I'd say too there are people in Australia who would be better sources than the internet. Annie Elliott is shooting some long-range now. Dunno about Stuart, I only met him once, and long ago, but he seemed very approachable. As I said, Jeff Rogers & esp,. Tony Z for technical help. The man I knew best was Alan Peake, but he's passed on.

BTW, you can get a bit of help on who's apt to know things in the states by looking at the Williamsport Hall of Fame site (you'll find Joe Salt(alamachia) there), or for IBS, the Long Range Marksman site (You'll find Danny Brooks there, one down from the top.)

http://internationalbenchrest.com/results/shooter_rankings/PrecRifLD.php

* * *

Danny, Joe:

I try not to post to the long-range forum anymore. Occasionally I get drawn in by accident when using the "New Posts" feature, and forget to see what forum the thread is in. You can probably figure out why...
 
Enough

Joe,

I don't believe "Stool" ever said where he shot, but I may have missed it. And I am hoping to start shooting again this coming year if economic factors allow. Obviously Stool does like to be corrected, another childish trait. Come to think of it, I bet after I got to know him or her, Stool would fall into that 15% I spoke of earlier.

Jim,
I have my barrels frozen also, but I still believe that the heavy barrels will consistently out shoot the HV barrels over a period of time.

Danny
 
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