C.L. Peterson
Active member
With the advent of the March scope what are the ways to reduce 3-3.5 ounces from your LV-HV Benchrest guns. Considering shortening the barrel or fluting the barrel. Any other ideas??
CLP
CLP
Making Weight
- Thread starter C.L. Peterson
- Start date
Gene Beggs
Active member
In my opinion, fluting is far better than shortening the barrel. Placing four 3/8 inch flutes .120 deep at 1:30, 4:30, 7:30 and 10:30 can easily remove six ounces from the average LV/HV BR barrel. Fluting in this manner retains full barrel diameter, length and stiffness in both the vertical and horizontal planes.
Gene Beggs
M
Mike Paul
Guest
besides what you have mentioned-
Have someone mill out the back of the buttplate if you have one. Another way might be to change the type of profile you are using for a barrel. I used to use HV blanks but now have gone to a slimmer LV blank. all the barrels on my last 2 guns have had to be right at 5lbs. I can't remember what the length was, but it was fine.
-MP
Have someone mill out the back of the buttplate if you have one. Another way might be to change the type of profile you are using for a barrel. I used to use HV blanks but now have gone to a slimmer LV blank. all the barrels on my last 2 guns have had to be right at 5lbs. I can't remember what the length was, but it was fine.
-MP
M
Mike Paul
Guest
Gene,
Do you have to relieve stress after fluting?
-Mike
Do you have to relieve stress after fluting?
-Mike
jackie schmidt
New member
Mike
I would amagine that there are multitudes of Gunsmiths who flute barrels. I would also venture a guess that not one subjects the barrel to any kind of stress relieving procedure after the fluting.
Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about the barrel on the Rifle, just get the next barrel cut further down the taper to lighten up the profile.
Heck, with my tuners, and a March Scope, I have now had to go all the way down to 76 ounces on my barrels at 21 inches.. They still shoot just as good.......jackie
I would amagine that there are multitudes of Gunsmiths who flute barrels. I would also venture a guess that not one subjects the barrel to any kind of stress relieving procedure after the fluting.
Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about the barrel on the Rifle, just get the next barrel cut further down the taper to lighten up the profile.
Heck, with my tuners, and a March Scope, I have now had to go all the way down to 76 ounces on my barrels at 21 inches.. They still shoot just as good.......jackie
E
eww1350
Guest
I had a bad experience when trying to flute a barrel to make weight...I was 3 ounces over weight after a new paint job...The rifle shot great with a fourth place finish in the Grand Agg at Dietz Range...I decided it would look nice to have a fluted barrel...I had 4 flutes cut by a competent gunsmith..The barrel was never competitive again...
In my opinion get a new barrel fluted by the barrel maker before it is chambered...fluting after it has been installed on an action is risky in my opinion..
In my opinion get a new barrel fluted by the barrel maker before it is chambered...fluting after it has been installed on an action is risky in my opinion..
jackie schmidt
New member
Tiny
The idea is that when dealing with Buttoned Rifled Barrels, there is an induced tension in the ID, any metal removed after final lapping could allow this tension to release, causing the bore to change dimensions.
I use the word tension because I can't think of another suitable word at the moment.
There are those who say you can actually feel this with a lapping plug when it is run through a fluted barrel..
Cut Rifled barrels are believed to not poccess this trait.
Who knows?? A lot of aggs have been won with fluted barrels. But the truth be known, you really don't see that many on the firing line.
Also, if the person doing the fluting is not meticulous, he can induce localized heat into the barrel, which could, (emphasis on could), induce stress in the material.
Perhaps Shilen is being cautious, since they have little controle over what people do with their barrels after they are purchased.........jackie
The idea is that when dealing with Buttoned Rifled Barrels, there is an induced tension in the ID, any metal removed after final lapping could allow this tension to release, causing the bore to change dimensions.
I use the word tension because I can't think of another suitable word at the moment.
There are those who say you can actually feel this with a lapping plug when it is run through a fluted barrel..
Cut Rifled barrels are believed to not poccess this trait.
Who knows?? A lot of aggs have been won with fluted barrels. But the truth be known, you really don't see that many on the firing line.
Also, if the person doing the fluting is not meticulous, he can induce localized heat into the barrel, which could, (emphasis on could), induce stress in the material.
Perhaps Shilen is being cautious, since they have little controle over what people do with their barrels after they are purchased.........jackie
M
Mike Paul
Guest
Jackie-
Your last post is similar to what I have heard about button barrels being fluted.
The last time the topic of fluting came up in my neck of the woods, Jerrel Mattingly told me that it was stressful cutting those flutes, and that he was the one that needed the stress relieved after doing one.
I believe he also had obtained a barrel of Skip Otto's that was fluted. I think the story goes that Skip thought it was shot out and threw it in the trash after whacking on it a few times down in Phoenix. Jerrel grabbed it and proceeded to do well with it. If the story's not correct, someone feel free to correct me....
-Mike
Your last post is similar to what I have heard about button barrels being fluted.
The last time the topic of fluting came up in my neck of the woods, Jerrel Mattingly told me that it was stressful cutting those flutes, and that he was the one that needed the stress relieved after doing one.
I believe he also had obtained a barrel of Skip Otto's that was fluted. I think the story goes that Skip thought it was shot out and threw it in the trash after whacking on it a few times down in Phoenix. Jerrel grabbed it and proceeded to do well with it. If the story's not correct, someone feel free to correct me....
-Mike
Tim Oltersdorf
Active member
Making weight
For emergency weight reduction remove the scope turret covers and the butt plate if you can. Substitute single screw rings for double screw rings. With this step you may have to lap the rings, bed the scope and locktight the rings to the dovetail. There is one final step you can take prior to machining the barrel: helium balloons. String about 15 to the top of the scope. To be even more efficient use hydrogen. Also as a bonus if you shoot a great group you can celebrate by lighting them. In this case a sturdy broad brimmed hat may be useful. Tim
For emergency weight reduction remove the scope turret covers and the butt plate if you can. Substitute single screw rings for double screw rings. With this step you may have to lap the rings, bed the scope and locktight the rings to the dovetail. There is one final step you can take prior to machining the barrel: helium balloons. String about 15 to the top of the scope. To be even more efficient use hydrogen. Also as a bonus if you shoot a great group you can celebrate by lighting them. In this case a sturdy broad brimmed hat may be useful. Tim
Dave Coots
64 Chevy 409 10.42 129
One problem Tim
Doc is a smoker, so he should stay away from the hydrogen.
Dave
Doc is a smoker, so he should stay away from the hydrogen.
Dave
R. G. Robinett
New member
Check out Dan Lilja's web site (link below)
For many years, I have been using Hunter Rifle taper (countour) barrels, which must taper to .750" at 26" ahead of the bolt-face. I do this for both my LV & Hunter Class rigs, simply cutting the barrel to the desired length necessary make weight - a "piece of cake" on a 10.5# rifle!
(Note: I order them with a full 5" shank, where a Hunter barrel may have only 4.0" of straight - 1.250" Dia. - cylinder ahead of the bolt-face)
The following link (if it works) will take you an article on Dan's web-page, discussing the RIGIDITY of Barrels - in short, counter-intuitively, as Dan points out, a Hunter Taper barrel, of equal length, is not only LIGHTER, but also STIFFER (less muzzle droop) than its LV contour counter part .
http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/rigidity_benchrest_rifles.htm
In case my link doesn't work, go the articles section of the Lilja web-site and look under barrel making: the article is titled something like, " A look at the Rigidity of Benchrest Barrels" . . . another "cat out of the bag" - my last one ! Good shootin'! RG
Doc, not much help in the short haul, but when you rebarrel, consider this:
For many years, I have been using Hunter Rifle taper (countour) barrels, which must taper to .750" at 26" ahead of the bolt-face. I do this for both my LV & Hunter Class rigs, simply cutting the barrel to the desired length necessary make weight - a "piece of cake" on a 10.5# rifle!
(Note: I order them with a full 5" shank, where a Hunter barrel may have only 4.0" of straight - 1.250" Dia. - cylinder ahead of the bolt-face)
The following link (if it works) will take you an article on Dan's web-page, discussing the RIGIDITY of Barrels - in short, counter-intuitively, as Dan points out, a Hunter Taper barrel, of equal length, is not only LIGHTER, but also STIFFER (less muzzle droop) than its LV contour counter part .
http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/rigidity_benchrest_rifles.htm
In case my link doesn't work, go the articles section of the Lilja web-site and look under barrel making: the article is titled something like, " A look at the Rigidity of Benchrest Barrels" . . . another "cat out of the bag" - my last one !
Good shootin'! RG
Last edited:
Butch Lambert
Active member
I was in Phoenix when Skip Otto shot a .099 World Record at 200 yards. He had a fluted Shilen barrel. Maybe he would have shot an .050 if he hadn't fluted it?
Butch
Butch
M
Mike Paul
Guest
who knows?
Butch, it could have been the same barrel.
-Mike
Butch, it could have been the same barrel.
-Mike
Boyd Allen
Active member
Back in the day, wasn't there something called a West Coast taper, and weren't they as accurate as any other? BTW has anyone looked into how much stiffer a barrel gets when shortened? My point is that if we think that a certain amount of stiffness is sufficient at a given length, might we not use a lighter profile to duplicate that value at a shorter length, and save additional weight. Personally, I think that as far as stiffness is concerned, there is a point beyond which little is gained. The trick is knowing where that point is.
Butch Lambert
Active member
Boyd,
Doesn't the smaller tapers heat up much faster? I think that a hunter taper would work though.
Butch
Doesn't the smaller tapers heat up much faster? I think that a hunter taper would work though.
Butch
R. G. Robinett
New member
Boyd, the answers to your questions are addressed in the linked article, by Dan Lilja.
RGGene Beggs
Active member
Mike
Jackie and others have answered your question in detail but I guess I could throw in my .02 worth.
No, in my opinion, it is not necessary to stress relieve after fluting. Every barrel I have fluted has shot very well but I use shallow, wide flutes and only flute in four positions and in only the last half of the barrel length.
My flutes look much like the ones that Skip Otto did for me except that I use only four flutes, where Skip used five. With four flutes, the barrel is still full diameter and full strength in the vertical and horizontal planes. Only dead weight is removed.
I guess this would be a good time to remind everyone that my 'Ultralite' stocks weigh little more than a pound.
Later,
Gene Beggs
M
Mike Paul
Guest
Rg-
That is some good information in the article. It confirms what I had thought about using HV blanks with shorter lengths in HV weight class. The problem with using HV blanks on LV rifles is the length when using scopes like the March or Leupold Comp scopes-they are too short. I like the LV taper that Gary Ocock recommended on my barrels and they are working just fine.
Tim gives a lot of good ideas to lighten the rifle, but I wouldn't want to shoot next to him while he's using balloons-too much of a distraction and an unfair advantage. Instead of banging that rifle back and forth, he could glide his rifle softly and quit moving his own bench around. The guys just too abusive with his rifle...
Gene,
next time I see you I will have to check your rifle out.
-Mike
That is some good information in the article. It confirms what I had thought about using HV blanks with shorter lengths in HV weight class. The problem with using HV blanks on LV rifles is the length when using scopes like the March or Leupold Comp scopes-they are too short. I like the LV taper that Gary Ocock recommended on my barrels and they are working just fine.
Tim gives a lot of good ideas to lighten the rifle, but I wouldn't want to shoot next to him while he's using balloons-too much of a distraction and an unfair advantage. Instead of banging that rifle back and forth, he could glide his rifle softly and quit moving his own bench around. The guys just too abusive with his rifle...
Gene,
next time I see you I will have to check your rifle out.
-Mike
Boyd Allen
Active member
Butch,
I guess that my question would be just how light can we go in contour without hurting accuracy or running into heating problems, at say 21"? I understand the heat issue, but I don't think that it would be a problem with some contours that are slightly lighter than is usual for Benchrest.
Boyd
I guess that my question would be just how light can we go in contour without hurting accuracy or running into heating problems, at say 21"? I understand the heat issue, but I don't think that it would be a problem with some contours that are slightly lighter than is usual for Benchrest.
Boyd