T
Texas Plinker
Guest
Give me a break, I was just joking with you.
V
Vibe
Guest
Why wouldn't you want to do both? That's exactly the information you'd need to verify to know how you achieved the accuracy, and what kept you from it. But I do agree, the current mounting system might not be the best route to that.
T
Texas Plinker
Guest
I guess part of my problem with your response is your attitude that a good group cannot be achieved with the MagnetoSpeed attached. I am not saying that everyone and every rifle can have good groups with it installed but it is possible and it does happen and by many shooters. SG Jennings post #4 includes pictures of his group with it installed and my post #12 gives the measurements of groups with and without it installed. I guess your comment "Forget it" is pretty conclusive of your opinion on whether it can be done.
I guess I must be an odd duck, because I conduct +90% of all my testing and developments with at least one chronograph in place, and strive by the data's feedback.
Don't even need a chronograph to just check speed. MOA to target from a zero feed into a ballistic program will give very accurately predicted speed without setting any chronograph up or strapping anything on a barrel. And actually more accurate speeds then many chronograph setups will.
Editing in: The above is also a good way to check/calibrate a chronograph to accuracy.
Donovan Moran
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Actually, to be precise for tuning, you want bullet time-in-bore. We're just sorta kinda inferring that from MV, but ceteris ain't always paribus.
You'd think with all the cool stuff coming down the pike, we could get a gismo that would tell us that, too. Bet you one of the guys on the board could make one -- Convince Jerry Hensler that he needs it for rimfire & it'd be done in a month or less. Or alinwa, he's another that'll go to the ends of the earth for an answer. Or Vibe, one of the Keiths, PBike, on & on.
V
Vibe
Guest
I was thinking the same thing. Particularly since this image was posted on another board recently.
I guess if you wanted to be REALLY anal about it, multiple strain gages would also indicate a specific acceleration curve. That particular image refers to rimfires, but the gist is the same.
But a measured muzzle velocity, and a different POI, would naturally indicate a differing "Time in Barrel".
The only additional input would be a Kolbe muzzle angle indicator.
Normmatzen
New member
MagnetoSpeed
I, too, have a MagnetoSpeed and since getting it, I haven't looked back! Sold the old Chroney!
I use mine on a couple hunting rifles as well as my 6BRX long range bench rest gun.
I, as well as others, have found the point of impact raised about a MOA with the MagnetoSpeed attached. One MOA at the target is a very small angle indeed and my theory is that as the bullet passes over the two inductors and induces a very slight current into the inductors creating a very slight up-kick due to repulsion from inductor to "moving charge" ( the bullet).
In addition, I find that any error caused in barrel tuning is hidden in my skill, or lack of same. I think two factors are at play. I have a tuner on my barrel and 1, the light weight of the Bayo compared to barrel plus tuner makes for a very small error in tuning. 2, If the barrel is tuned precisely the slight tuning error is eliminated by the Q of the tuning. That's why we tune so carefully, so any deviation from perfect load is still within the compensation of the tune. After all, I check my tune by shooting small groups with variations of powder charge of 0.3 gn and tune to smallest vertical. I don't think the light, loosely coupled (rubber MagnetoSpeed mounting pads), create significant error to the actual tune.
I have heard of folks actually competing with the Bayo on the barrel. My friend and mentor in Australia shoots F Class and for practice they have informal "meets" and he competes with it on with no degradation in scores. He, too, has a tuner.
I, too, have a MagnetoSpeed and since getting it, I haven't looked back! Sold the old Chroney!
I use mine on a couple hunting rifles as well as my 6BRX long range bench rest gun.
I, as well as others, have found the point of impact raised about a MOA with the MagnetoSpeed attached. One MOA at the target is a very small angle indeed and my theory is that as the bullet passes over the two inductors and induces a very slight current into the inductors creating a very slight up-kick due to repulsion from inductor to "moving charge" ( the bullet).
In addition, I find that any error caused in barrel tuning is hidden in my skill, or lack of same. I think two factors are at play. I have a tuner on my barrel and 1, the light weight of the Bayo compared to barrel plus tuner makes for a very small error in tuning. 2, If the barrel is tuned precisely the slight tuning error is eliminated by the Q of the tuning. That's why we tune so carefully, so any deviation from perfect load is still within the compensation of the tune. After all, I check my tune by shooting small groups with variations of powder charge of 0.3 gn and tune to smallest vertical. I don't think the light, loosely coupled (rubber MagnetoSpeed mounting pads), create significant error to the actual tune.
I have heard of folks actually competing with the Bayo on the barrel. My friend and mentor in Australia shoots F Class and for practice they have informal "meets" and he competes with it on with no degradation in scores. He, too, has a tuner.
Andy Cross
New member
Distance too far
It's a pity we live on virtually opposite sides of the globe. Otherwise I would get you to shoot your magnetospeed chrono on my PPC with any of the 4 barrels I have for it at the moment. You would find I was not dreaming about the lousy grouping with it attached. At 100 yards in light consistent wind conditions you won't get better than a mid to high .3
Andy.
It's a pity we live on virtually opposite sides of the globe. Otherwise I would get you to shoot your magnetospeed chrono on my PPC with any of the 4 barrels I have for it at the moment. You would find I was not dreaming about the lousy grouping with it attached. At 100 yards in light consistent wind conditions you won't get better than a mid to high .3
Andy.
A
abintx
Guest
I'm all for keeping it simple. Put it on the barrel, capture velocity for two 10 round groups, average each group, average the two averages ... if you want. Take it off the barrel. Record the averages for reference. Then move on to something more important.
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SGJennings
New member
Going to have to have one of those RSI wireless pressure trace dealies. That's awesome info.
Andy Cross
New member
Didn't ever consider
I never considered the poorer grouping ability with it attached to the barrel to be important. Just a fact. But the shot to shot variations in velocity, standard variations etc I do consider important. I think this information is as important as many other aspects of precision shooting. Why would one want to just move on. Doing that defeats the purpose of gathering the information in the first place.
Andy.
I never considered the poorer grouping ability with it attached to the barrel to be important. Just a fact. But the shot to shot variations in velocity, standard variations etc I do consider important. I think this information is as important as many other aspects of precision shooting. Why would one want to just move on. Doing that defeats the purpose of gathering the information in the first place.
Andy.
Hope I don't come across to abrupt here, and am in no way discrediting any brand of chronograph or any individuals uses of them. To each our own......
I have spent a lot of time shooting over chronographs and have had as many as 7 chronographs set inline at one time (while testing chronographs), and can report there is a lot of variances between all chronographs on a whole (even between the same models). Also can report that setup and consistent setup can greatly improve most all brands/models accuracy levels. With dual/triple "eye" sensor types, controlled lighting and/or artificial lighting can greatly improve there accuracy and repeatability. I repeatedly find direct sunlight and certain sunlight angles can be very detrimental to any "eye" censored type, no matter what the brand/model.
What I look for in any chronograph setup, no matter what the brand or price tag, is how well it will pattern or simulate with the actual POI's on the target. Where to say if a bullet prints higher on the target, does the chronograph also say that by the velocity.
If a chronograph setup doesn't target simulate to say at least 75% of the actual POI's on the target, I deem any of the ES, SD, and Average data are in to large of error to be creditable.
In all honesty I want target simulation probability to be 85% or greater before I will look upon any ES, SD, Av, as factual data.
I've been able to get good consistence, repeatability, and target simulation from even the very inexpensive chronographs when a good setup is implemented. But when just setting them out in the element sort to speak, typically the data yields just that.
Infrared lighting I find can greatly improve eyed sensor type chronographs, but still with limitations to direct sun-light. When shaded or in complete darkness, I've really seen high levels of simulation and repeatability from day to day, month to month, year to year, with infrared.
Acoustic setups are the best I've yet to use/see. To bad there wasn't more of them and at cheaper prices!.!.!
In closing and to the OP's topic, if you have a Magnetospeed or any brand, model, type and it will pattern/simulate to above 75% of the time, it is better then many. If it will do +85% or better, then it is a pretty respectable setup, in my opinion/experience.
I don't care what the name brand or how much it costs, if the setup is poor, so will be the FACTUAL data. If we expect "laboratory results", we need to give them a "laboratory setup" and control all the effecting elements we can.
Donovan Moran
I have spent a lot of time shooting over chronographs and have had as many as 7 chronographs set inline at one time (while testing chronographs), and can report there is a lot of variances between all chronographs on a whole (even between the same models). Also can report that setup and consistent setup can greatly improve most all brands/models accuracy levels. With dual/triple "eye" sensor types, controlled lighting and/or artificial lighting can greatly improve there accuracy and repeatability. I repeatedly find direct sunlight and certain sunlight angles can be very detrimental to any "eye" censored type, no matter what the brand/model.
What I look for in any chronograph setup, no matter what the brand or price tag, is how well it will pattern or simulate with the actual POI's on the target. Where to say if a bullet prints higher on the target, does the chronograph also say that by the velocity.
If a chronograph setup doesn't target simulate to say at least 75% of the actual POI's on the target, I deem any of the ES, SD, and Average data are in to large of error to be creditable.
In all honesty I want target simulation probability to be 85% or greater before I will look upon any ES, SD, Av, as factual data.
I've been able to get good consistence, repeatability, and target simulation from even the very inexpensive chronographs when a good setup is implemented. But when just setting them out in the element sort to speak, typically the data yields just that.
Infrared lighting I find can greatly improve eyed sensor type chronographs, but still with limitations to direct sun-light. When shaded or in complete darkness, I've really seen high levels of simulation and repeatability from day to day, month to month, year to year, with infrared.
Acoustic setups are the best I've yet to use/see. To bad there wasn't more of them and at cheaper prices!.!.!
In closing and to the OP's topic, if you have a Magnetospeed or any brand, model, type and it will pattern/simulate to above 75% of the time, it is better then many. If it will do +85% or better, then it is a pretty respectable setup, in my opinion/experience.
I don't care what the name brand or how much it costs, if the setup is poor, so will be the FACTUAL data. If we expect "laboratory results", we need to give them a "laboratory setup" and control all the effecting elements we can.
Donovan Moran
A
abintx
Guest
Andy, I'm a short-range shooter. I'm only interested in seeing that the velocity for my 30BR and 6PPC are within the accuracy norms for the cartridge. For example: 2950-3050 for the 30BR, and 3300-3380 for the 6PPC for the bullet-barrel-powder-brass-primer combo I'm using that's putting bullets through the same hole. Once I'm there, I rather spend my time practicing over a good set of wind flags in varying conditions. I could care less about ES and SD. To me, those numbers have been rendered immaterial by bullets going through the same hole.
I'm a firm believer that you never tune with a chronograph, you tune with the bullet-barrel-powder-brass-primer combo that has bullets going through the same hole. Once you've done that the mission has been accomplished. For me, the numbers associated are for historical reference only.
I believe that what one looks at, is predominately determined by the yardages one shoots at. And, the importance one shooter versus another shooter places on the information gathered, will vary.
Andy Cross
New member
Inclined to agree
I agree. But once I have a tune if the rifle stops putting them through the one hole then I go back and check the chrono data to see if it has changed. If not I look for some other issue.
Andy
I agree. But once I have a tune if the rifle stops putting them through the one hole then I go back and check the chrono data to see if it has changed. If not I look for some other issue.
Andy
Normmatzen
New member
When I mentioned that the magnetospeed didn't up set groups, I was talking about long range BR and F Class.
I never said anything about 100 yd BR and the absolutely insane groups you folks shoot!
I never said anything about 100 yd BR and the absolutely insane groups you folks shoot!
Andy Cross
New member
Yep
It can be set via software to detect bullets made from various materials. The sensitivity level can also be altered.
Andy.
It can be set via software to detect bullets made from various materials. The sensitivity level can also be altered.
Andy.
W
warbird2006
Guest
I think so too, it must throuw the barrel harmonics out of the whack.