Learning to read the flags

F

Fred Nickel

Guest
This may end up being a question without solid answers but there usually ends up being some read good words of wisdom on this board.

I want to get better at reading the flags ..... can anyone recommend an approach or method that will make learning more effective? Sure I know, get out there and shoot, that's the plan .... but what I mean is there a way to go about it that will help "break down and see the effect of the wind"

I generally go out there and watch the flags for awhile, and when it seems right I pull the trigger, and then I go "Wow ... how'd it get over there?" ..... what I am asking is there a better way? The problem with that is there is no way to go back and look at what I did and why it went wrong.

A friend has suggested that I video tape over my shoulder towards the target so that I can see the direction of the flags .... I could put up an ARA target ... 25 bulls ... shooting each of the numbered bulls one at a time .... as I go from one to the other I could say the number of the bull (which will be picked up on the tape) .... when I actually shoot the sound will again be on the tape ... and I could go back and see where the bullet hits as well as see what position the flags are in ...... this sounded like a pretty good idea to me. I am gonna try it.

So are there any other suggestions out there? Any help in laying out a game plan would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks .... Fred
 
Sounds like you might be missing pickups and letoffs , what are you using to indicate wind velocity? The flag only shows direction as you know.
 
Fred, I'll echo Steve's response. You need some sort of 'tail' on the flags to help with the velocity.

Starting out, I'd keep things simple and use two flags at 100...one about 10-15 yards ahead of the bench and another at around the 60 yd. area. If the range has odd features, set the flags accordingly. If the firing line has an overhanging cover, make sure the first flag is out far enough to be in the 'spill' that comes off the roof in tail winds/quartering from behind winds.

But honestly, the best tool for learning the wind is an extremely accurate rifle. Whatever you're using to learn with needs to be a good enough tool for you to trust that what you're seeing on target as 'wind condition' is actually that....not just the guns inaccuracy. What that accuracy level needs to be, I'm not sure. At the very least, the 'tool' needs to be boringly consistent in it's grouping ability.

Don't fall into the trap of trying to analyze the wind as relates to bullet displacement on-target. Even the best wind flags don't show us everything that's going on out there. Make sure you check the mirage before every shot unless the wind speed is high enough for the mirage to not be changing. In switchy conditions, the mirage will usually 'flip' before the flags show a directional change.

Most days it's enough to know that when the flags are pointing here...you need to hold here... to get the bullet to hit there.

For what it's worth. :) -Al
 
Got tails .... and a few windicators too. Velocity is covered.

After reading through this thread my original question may have been a "dumb one"

I tend to get overly analytical at times ...... maybe I'll just get out there and shoot huh?

Fred
 
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Fred, you did not indicate whether you were trying to read Flags in a Competitive Situation, or simply sit down at the range and shoot small groups. There is a difference in the way you approach the problem.

I can sit down at the range, take all the time I need, and by watching every little nuance in the way the flags react, shoot really small groups. But, this has little to do with the ability to read flags within the 7 minute time period that you are alloted to shoot a group in Competition.

Benchrest has evolved in the past years. More and more shooters are adopting the senario that says, "you have seven minutes to decide in what 25 seconds you are going to shoot the group". in other words, you wait untill the condition settles enough to where what ever is out there has the least amount of affect on the bullets path, and you get all five rounds on the paper. If you are really good at this, you can be watching for any slight pickup and hold accordingly, without missing a beat. The really good shooters have mastered this ability, and that is why, while they rarely shoot the smallest group od the Agg, rarely shoot anything big enough to take them out of the hunt. That is what we call "shooting for aggregate". Small aggregates win matches, not small groups.

The equipment used in Benchrest has even evolved to fit this style. The stick shift front rest, (Farley, Seb), and bag set-ups that allow the shooter to cycle and return the Rifle for the next shot as quickly as possible, and of course, efficient ejectors, allowing the shooter to load ad fast as possible.

Of course, sometimes the conditions never give you a steady enough let-up to do this, so you have to watch and catch the most consistant push and get them off, using the same technique. Tomball is notorious for this, that swirling switching crap that drives you crazy.

I do not use the run and gun method, my brain does not work that way. I hunt and pick a condition, often taking the full seven minutes to shoot the group. That is why I sometimes shoot real well, and sometimes stink it up. While I am sitting there trying to tell the difference between 5mph and 6mph, 10 degrees of angle and 30 degrees, the shooter next to me has finished and is already cleaning his Rifle.

The biggest drawback to the first method I mentioned is you have to have a Rifle that is in a top notch tune. Ever heard someone say, "don't shoot the letups". The reason they say this is their Rifle is not in a good enough tune. Shooters who shoot the lets know that they must keep the Rifle working.

The advantage to to the "hunt and pick" method that I use is if you are able to catch that condition five times within that seven minutes, you can shoot very good aggs. But, if you screw around and get caught in a hard reversal with 15 seconds to go and only three rounds on the record, you are probably going to be fighting it out for 49th place in a 50 shooter field.

I recommend that you sit down and learn to shoot your group in the least amount of condition that the moment presents. That way, even if you miss it a little, the results are not near as disastrous as if you were trying to shoot a push, miss a let-up, and stick an agg killer about .400 from the other four shots.

I have a new Drop Port Stiller this year, I am going to try and amend my ways and adopt more speed in my shooting. Old habits are hard to break. It is probably too late for me, but younger shooters can learn from the guys that know how to tune a Rifle, and put those rounds down there.

Oh, one thing I forgot. The REALLY great shooters can do it any way that is required in a given situation. That is why they are always at the top.........jackie
 
The more you shoot, the more you will understand why your bullet went where it printed. Tony Boyer told me you need to shoot enough to be able to hold off for each shot if necessary. He said he chases the first bullet hole. I think that Jackie mentioned that you have to have an accurate and tuned rifle or it doesn't matter.
Butch
 
Jackie,

The answer your 1st question ..... BOTH. In practice, even when I have all the time that I need, too many times I am surprised by where the hole ends up. More so in competition cause now the clock is ticking ....


For clarification ... all of my shooting has been Rimfire (ARA,... 25 bulls, Worst Case Scoring) .... plus I only have 1 good year of shooting under my belt at that. I didn't too terrible that year .... had my real good days and my real crappy days.

We shoot at 50 yards for those that may not know ... I use 5 flags in those 50 yards .... 1 Wicks Single Vane and 4 Wicks Dual Vanes all with tails .... plus a windicator maybe 1/3 of the way out. See below

leger_farley.jpg



My problem is I'm not yet able to combine what all of the flags are showing me and figure out where I need to hold off to. Maybe my problem is simple .... maybe I should be waiting for times when the flags are more aligned. It just never seems that that happens all that often where I shoot. For an example look at how the flags are facing in this picture. Very little velocity here but the flags typically point all over the place.

Fred


I went back and read your post Jackie .... I am Hunt and Pick too ....
 
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Fred, I see one problem. Way too many tails on those flags. All you need is one, it will tell you what you need to know........jackie
 
A lot of good advice from some proven shooters. One thing you might want to try is to put 2-3 flags about 15 yds left or right (depending on which way the wind is coming from). That way, when you are practicing, you get used to looking to see what is coming between shots. This is much easier to actually do at a match with rows of flags. Tunnel vision (only looking at your own flags) can be a hinderance.

Stanley
 
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Apollo said:
Tunnel vision (only looking at your own flags) can be a hinderance.
Click to expand...

Further complicated by the fact that I can't see very well through my left eye. When I'm looking through the scope with my right eye I don't even know that there are any flags out there. Makes for busy times sometimes.
 
By what you just discribed I would suggest you start setting your further out flags a LOT more scope centerline. Your photograph shows you as a RH shooter,Left eye watching, but your flags are set up like a LH shooter, Right eye watching. You are losing the condition you saw as you get re-focused on the scope. Set the flags you can see w/ your left eye, those closest in, to the left, and set the rest of them dead center in the scope. That is assuming you can see anything w/ your left eye.

BTW. have you tested to see if you are left eyE dominant? My wife is fatally right-handed, but we discovered one day by accident that she was just as fatally left eye dominate. Having her shoot LH made a HUGE difference in her abilities. Now I am glad she does not shoot competitively. She would beat me like a rented mule if she did.
 
It was a warp in the time space continium!

Fred, As important as it is to learn to read the flags there is an even more important technique that needs to be mastered. As a consummate savant of it I feel qualified to give professional advice. I am speaking of how to properly throw a fit when you miss a flag change and shoot a large group. Here are a few hints to get you started until you become proficient and develop your own unique style:
Evoking the gods; throw both hands skyward, whip your head back and in a loud anguished voice cry out "Why me, God! Why me?"
The old now it decides to become tuned; Wail "I held off and it went right where I held"
The terminator; Bend your cleaning rod. Throw your ear muffs. Hurl your reloading equipment onto the ground. This one combines the right balance of self flagellation and hatred for all your BR apparatus.
Finally there is my own favorite, the chicken; rapidly whirl around in a circle yelling out cluck! cluck! cluck! cluck! only substituting a single consonant for the cl. Don't worry you will know which letter to use. Tim
 
David Halblom said:
By what you just discribed I would suggest you start setting your further out flags a LOT more scope centerline. Your photograph shows you as a RH shooter,Left eye watching, but your flags are set up like a LH shooter, Right eye watching. You are losing the condition you saw as you get re-focused on the scope. Set the flags you can see w/ your left eye, those closest in, to the left, and set the rest of them dead center in the scope. That is assuming you can see anything w/ your left eye.

BTW. have you tested to see if you are left eyE dominant? My wife is fatally right-handed, but we discovered one day by accident that she was just as fatally left eye dominate. Having her shoot LH made a HUGE difference in her abilities. Now I am glad she does not shoot competitively. She would beat me like a rented mule if she did.
Click to expand...

This should be good ........ I sit on the left of the rifle. I look through the scope with my right eye. The only way to explain what the vision in my left eye is to say it's 20/200 and it's kinda like peripheral vision across the whole eye. The reason the flags are on the right side like they are is so I can look up from the scope and have them right in front of me.

Your idea of setting the furthest targets closer to the target makes sense. I think it will make it easier for me to see them.

As far as eye dominent ..... that's not the problem ..... and I've been through tons of eye exams .... it is what it is.



Hey Tim ..... Great Post .....
 
Fred says he shoots ARA. There are no flag height restrictions in ARA....you can put em anywhere so long as they are not in the bullet path of your neighbor. One guy we all know and love even clamps one on top of the target frame above his target. (don't try it IR50 they DO have flag placement rules) Like Fred, my left eye is almost useless. That said I set my flags to the left edge of the bench and run em down range so the last flag is in line with the right edge of the target. Don't want to have any flag hiding behind the one in front of it. I shoot ARA head up, never looking through the scope when I pull the trigger, but watch the flags. Now, if I could just learn what they are telling me I'd be a much better shooter. So far I let the flags tell me when to NOT shoot. bob
 
bob finger said:
Fred says he shoots ARA. There are no flag height restrictions in ARA....you can put em anywhere so long as they are not in the bullet path of your neighbor. One guy we all know and love even clamps one on top of the target frame above his target. (don't try it IR50 they DO have flag placement rules) Like Fred, my left eye is almost useless. That said I set my flags to the left edge of the bench and run em down range so the last flag is in line with the right edge of the target. Don't want to have any flag hiding behind the one in front of it. I shoot ARA head up, never looking through the scope when I pull the trigger, but watch the flags. Now, if I could just learn what they are telling me I'd be a much better shooter. So far I let the flags tell me when to NOT shoot. bob
Click to expand...

Bob,

I hear ya on shooting ARA head up .... most of the times that's where it is


FBecigneul,

Bobs right ... ARA ... no rules. Like I said, as far as seeing flags out of my left eye? AIN'T NUTTIN HAPNIN
 
Fred, I will not comment on the style and type of flags as its an indavidual thing. I have a hard time with white and red ? The pointing in all directions is very typical up here in Maine, except they are still all standing up right. I may not be the best to give you advice on this but I can give you an opinion. In this situation I would see how many changes there are prior to the match beginning. Pick one and see were it prints, call the shot in your mind before pulling the trigger. Example, 3 further flags at 11:00 first 2 3:00, check velocity and you have a few guesses were it should impact. Pick one and send it, did go there ? Adjust your hold and send another sighter or two. See what flag (s) are causing the movement and try to follow that condition. Dont focus on that one or set of flags though, check them all and use that flag or two as insurance. In score we use 10 min. relays so that does help in the waiting for a condition. Rely on your neighbors up wind flags too. I would put one in position of the target and try to see it in the bottom of the scope if possible. I would guess by the looks of your range, alot of the 100 yard conditions are created by spill over the trees and burm or a roll from wind from behind you. Do you have vertical or horizontal issues, or both ? just currious what you are having trouble with when you say " unexplained shot ".

Andy B
 
Hey Andy,

Thanks for the "approach" .... that's kinda what I'm hoping to get out of this. I just sit there and see all of the flags and tails etc .... pull the trigger and when it's off I have nothing more than "guess I didn't read that one right" .... I'm hoping to learn some ways to help me analyze what's going on and what I did wrong.

Fred
 
Fred,
Take a note book with you. This might take most of a day, but a good excuse to shoot. Typically up here around 9:00 to 10:00 the wind will start, around 3:00 it lets off some, Shoot, jot down were the flags were pointing and draw a picture of the group. I have been using a multi target sheet of paper and keeping them with wind and load data in a note book for refference. I use 3 shots. Wait for no wind or another condition and shoot again. I may only have 5 -6 groups by the end of the day. But good info on the tune of the rifle and my wind reading inabillities. In no wind make sure you see the group size and shape you have tuned to. If not, it might not be the wind. Bench etiquette can also cause this. I rarely shoot in zero wind so I dont practice that way. Work on you first, its cheap and wont waste amo. Then its just a matter of shooting. Do you have anyother shooters willing to help? alot can be learned from someone just watching your shooting style. I try to get as much information with the fewest numer of rounds down range. In the worst conditions I will use that as good practice with what I have learned. The targets I use can be printed from 6mmbr.com. Be patient, it will work out.

Andy B
 
A Few "Wind" Stories

I haven't shot for a few years, but remember some past scenarios/tips that may be irrelevant to wind
reading. Having worn glasses for 60 yrs, I have, probably rightly so, been pushing the legally blind
category for a long time. One plus I think, is that I could gaze down a rifle bore without glasses
and see every little detail, just like using a bore scope:).

I never could line up flags to my left and see them while looking thru the scope,so tried to get them on line,
high enough to see in the scope. Worked so-so with 6x, but the 36x, not too well. Drove refs nuts because they
were too high. Usually they were laid down (RIP, Butch). Sometimes they just blew over:(.

One match, at 200 yds, pretty calm, lots of mirage, I could just make out the square, so fired away.
Best group I ever shot.

Tried a Weaver 6x18 scope some, used my spotting scope to see poi. Set a small group range record.

Was sharing flags at a match. My bench friend was on earlier relay. On second day, I fooled
around in club house until my relay came up. Went out to bench to set up,and there were no flags. Seemed
he had removed his flags and left after first day shooting was finished:p.

At times,the wind howls pretty bad. At 200yds, sometimes used the impact dust in front of the berm as a wind flag

Our range had a 100Yd long berm on the west side for safety from next door range. When wind howled out
of west, the flags closest to the berm whirrled around about 20rpm. Flag reading was impossible.
Past the berm, 100 to 200 yds, they just bent over showing the hard blow. I shot on the
bench under the berm sometimes,luck of the draw. Shot real well in a hard west wind. Seems the
whirling wind had little deflection from 0 to 100 yds. The benches further east had progressively
more direct wind and were much more difficult to shoot in.

I set a range record in a snow storm once, could just make out the targets at that one. That was 6x hunter.


At the tail end of my illustrious shooting career:rolleyes:, I decided to watch the other guys flags, on both
sides, sort of like heads up. Worked ok, but usually only had one way to go, that was up.

I played around with some airfoil/wing style wind flags. Never got them to work real well, but got lots of
guffaws:D.

Obviously, incorrect flag reading can result in a really bad shot, but the best
shooters know how to read them and seldom have that happen. Good luck. A not so good wind flag reader. Ron Kent.
 
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