L461 chamberings need advice

N

nlevesque

Guest
I come to this forum with the hope that you folks may have an answer... I would like to chamber and build a deer rifle around a L461 Sako action. I need the most power cartridge possible that will work in that bold face. I believe some L461 have been built on the 6mm BR and I was looking for other suggestions. Thanks!
 
I too am a pretty big Sako fan for hunting and varmint rifles. Keep in mind that this is a forum dedicated to benchrest shooting - you may get better response on a hunting board. That said, I'll throw my 2 bits in...

I know your Vixen boltface has been chambered for 6PPC, and I wonder if that isn't what your thinking of - 6BR is 308 boltface, and I may be wrong, but expect it would be too large. PPC may be the practical limit as far as "power" goes. Even then, action and mag well length will likely get pretty tight when you get up to the 87-100 gr.bullets. I assume you're wanting a repeater.

Don't know what field conditions you might encounter, or what exterior ballistics you hope to end up with. My personal minimum is in the 243 Win range for deer/antelope. Ask this same question on a hunting board and you'll always have guys chime in about how many deer they've killed with anything from a 22lr, Hornet, Bee, 222, 223, etc. I won't say they're liars or even wrong, but it just doesn't work for me. I want plenty of cartridge to feel confident taking that 500 yd quartering away shot on that big muley if I have to. If your expectations are anywhere near that, I think you might be stretching the 461 platform pretty thin. It was designed for medium range casual target/varmint shooting, and for that it's great.

There are some very knowledgable shooters here that also enjoy hunting. Maybe they'll chime in and likely will have a different view. As for myself, I've recently picked a couple of pre-Garcia L-579s for $5-550. One has a pretty nasty barrel, both inside and out, so little collectable value. I've been thinking about rebarreling it to 260 Rem, maybe Ackley version. It seems like you might be better off to keep the Vixen for varmints or swap it off for a Forrester. Sure seems like it would be a lot less headache.

FWIW, Dick
 
I may be wrong..

But I do not believe you can make a 461 into a PPC or BR, not enough bolt face.

If you want to build a 6mm deer rilfe for short to medium range on a 461, consider a 6X47. Not the new 6x47, the one based on the 222mag that did so well in BR in the 60's and 70's.

Ballisticly it is very close to a PPC and will provide you more accuracy than you will ever use in a deer rifle, or varmint rifle for the matter.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I am in the same boat as Dick, love Sakos. I have one I built years ago on 579 in 270/308AI that I love. Loaded and ready to hun, 6 1/4 pounds.

I have been considering rebarreling it to a 260 Rem, very very tempting.

I recently picked up a 222 Sako Deluxe (with origianl box) that appears to have less than a 100 rounds thru it. I have been considering selling it to fund a couple other projects, but they are hard to let go of......

This thread should be moved to the factory section....

Randy
 
To hunt w/a.......

461, I'd have to ditto Randy. That said, let me wander around a bit. In the larger 6MM cartridges, for deer, etc., probably the best bullet to use is the Sierra 85BTHP; but it is a long bullet. It is a violent bullet, when started around 3000 fps, originally marketed as a fast-opening varmint bullet. While looking at the 6X47 Rem., I would carefully investigate the Sierra 80 "Blitz" and the Sierra 70 "Blitzking". In a rifle w/a 9 or even an eight inch twist, your linear velocity will be somewhat slower as a result of smaller capacity, resulting in a less violent expansion of these bullets, while still giving you better performance in such a limited capacity case. If you pick your ranges & shots carefully, you'll be able in a short while to get a good feel for what is possible. In the 222Mag-based cartridge you may find yourself handicapped with a bullet over 80 grains weight. As far as a hunting rifle, though, within carefully defined parameters, it would be a real joy, fly-rod weight, accurate, good lethality. It really depends on YOU.... will you pass up a shot that is less than ideal?? If the animal is moving away & not presenting a text-book shot, will you call it off until another day?? Will you shoot at an animal at 350 yards, or pass it up?? If not, maybe you should skip the 461, & look for a .243, or better yet, a 6MM Rem., you'll be happier, & so will the deer.
 
Easy chamberings

6x45 (223 necked up to 6mm) dies are readly avaliable . The 25 Copperhead ( 222rem necked up to 25) dies are avaliable but not cheep.There are some 7mm on the 222/223/222mag cases used by the silhouette group. O.W.L.:D:D:D
 
Rusty,

Not knowing where nlevesque is located, he might be faced wth the same issue we have in the People's Republic of Mexifornia...... No 22's for deer size game. Here the Black Tails don't get much bigger than a good size Yote.....

If he can use a 22, the the 223 would be a good choice for short range small deer.

The varmint Sihlo game I shoot has been won by a 223 many times. Most of the guys that shoot the 22's are using fast twist barrels and long VLD style bullets. They do the job all the way out to 600 yards.

I would not be afraid to take a shot at a small deer with a 223 and a heavy bullet. But I would prefer to have just a little more bullet.

In reality, the 461 is not a good choice, the 579 size action is not much heavier and is far more versital. Find some varmint hunter and trade the 461 for a good 579, you will be alot happier.

JMHO

Randy
 
Say Randy......

will those VLDs even open on a deer?? I'm asking because I don't have any experience w/them, I was under the impression they were a more heavily constructed bullet, not designed for expansion, much like the Sierra target bullets....??
 
L461 Chambering

I have done many hours of research and gone round and round on this very subject for over 5 years. I am currently in the process of having an L461 rebarrelled to 6x223 as a whitetail rifle. I live in the Adirondacks of NY, and have never shot a whitetail at 100 yards, and that's out of quite a few, so long shots are no real issue to me. I am a licensed hunting guide and have shot deer with .222, .222mag, .223, but don't have much confidence in the rounds without snow to follow up on. I absolutely love my Vixen, but want a bit more power to hunt deer with it regularly. The 85gr Barnes TSX or Nosler Partition should be a significant step up. When finished it will have a factory contour, fluted Hart barrel (if they'll flute a 6mm barrel in that contour) to replace the original 222 mag barrel and will have a 1 in 9 or 1 in 10 twist. The L461 magazine length precludes long cartridges and the small bolt face limits case diameter. I think the 6x223 is the best possible answer based on the action's limitation and component availability. The 6x223 will stack and feed from the magazine as the original case did. With high quality 223 brass available from Lapua and others, and 222 mag brass hard to find, the 6x47 was a non-starter for me (I know about the .204 Ruger cases).

About the only other realistic option is the 6.5mpc from SSK, but as a proprietary cartridge everything is more expensive. If you'd like to discuss this by PM, please feel free to email me at shaw.fe@gmail.com.

Frank Shaw
 
6.5 Grendel. Would be where I would chamber a barrel to. based on the .220 Russian case.
 
as previously said, the 6-223 would be an acceptable choice. The magazine
lends itself to this well. The barrel tenon is not big so the smaller case
will not get you in trouble there. This also requires no modification to the bolt or extractor and all in all will be the least expensive. Dies and a barrel change.
 
L461 Chambering

PPC cases won't stack or feed out of the L461 magazine without significant modifications. I actually bought 20 norma PPC cases to see if it was do-able. Also, the gunsmiths I've talked to say opening an L461 bolt face to .445 is questionable at best.
 
Another option, the 7mm TCU. A silhouette round for the Big Bore handgun game. It is based on the 223 Rem brass. Plenty of dies available. It will take a Nosler 120g Ballistic Tip to about 2700 with something like RL-7.
 
L461 Chambering

The L461 magazine isn't long enough to effectively take advantage of the 7 TCU because of bullet intrusion decreasing case capacity. The 85gr Nosler Partition is only .950" in length. 7mm bullets that are deer capable will be significantly longer. The 6 TCU is a better TCU option but offers limited real advantage over the standard 6x223 and to me doesn't justify the case forming effort required. The 6.5mpc has a shorter case which could offer a heavier bullet within available magazine length. The 25 Copperhead mentioned earlier does the same and Wolfe Publishing's "Wildcat Cartridges" has 2 good articles in it. Dies and reamers for the Copperhead are going to be harder to come by and dies will be more expensive. Deer capable bullets in 6mm that complement .223 case capacity make 6mm hard to beat in this specific situation. A longer action like the 700 short action would open possibilities that don't work well in the 461. Just one man's opinion.
 
fshaw said:
Also, the gunsmiths I've talked to say opening an L461 bolt face to .445 is questionable at best.
Click to expand...

The Sako factory managed it without any drama.

My factory Sako, single shot, Varmint model in 6PPC is built on the L461/AI action, with a 0.555" diameter bolt. It works fine - though I certainly don't run the hot sort of loads some BR shooters use. The factory also made repeaters built on the same basic action, in 6PPC and 22PPC. A friend of mine has has one of the latter, and it also works well.
 
fshaw said:
The L461 magazine isn't long enough to effectively take advantage of the 7 TCU because of bullet intrusion man's
Click to expand...
Just curious, what is the magazine length on the L461? Thanks.

A 7 TCU with the 120g Nosler #28121 which shorter than the BalTip, is 2.469. That is/was a flat point bullet made for cases like the 7-30 Waters. I'm not sure it is even made anymore. How about the Sierra SP 1900?
 
L461 Chambering

The absolute longest cartridge I can put in my magazine without having bullet tip/magazine interference is 2.315. I will probably go with an overall loaded length 5 to 10 thousandths shorter than that for deer hunting bullets and single load BR quality bullets at longer overall length to see what it will be capable of.

It is my understanding that the L461's in PPC had a larger diameter action than the standard chamberings. I do not know if this is actually true and if so whether they increased bolt diameter as well or not as I've never measured one of the PPC L461's.
 
fshaw said:
It is my understanding that the L461's in PPC had a larger diameter action than the standard chamberings. I do not know if this is actually true and if so whether they increased bolt diameter as well or not as I've never measured one of the PPC L461's.
Click to expand...

This matter had quite an airing a few months ago in another thread here about Sako actions. There may well have been some small Sako actions made at some time with larger receivers and/or bolts than the standard L461, but nobody who was involved in that discussion was able to provide any specifics.

All I can say about it is that the receiver and bolt dimensions of my 6PPC varmint model and my 222 standard model are identical. (except for the bolt face counterbore and extractor, obviously)
 
There IS one other chambering.......

that could be used, ta-DAAAAH!! The 6X50 Magnum!!:D

I think Privi and S&B, & maybe RWS make ammo/brass for that (to be necked up)
If you look at the last thread on "SAKO rings" there is some informative discussion on those PPC/Vixen actions.
 
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