Keyholeing Problem with Remington 22-250

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ehkempf

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I have a question about using either Hornady V-Max or Nosler Ballistic Tip 55 grain bullets in a Remington 22-250 with a 1-14 twist. I have both a Remington 700 VLSS and a 700 SPS Varmint, both with 1-14 twist. They both seem to shoot 50 grain Hornady and Nosler bullets fine, but when it comes to the 55 grain it looks like a shotgun pattern at 100 yards. In fact at 25 yards with the Hornady factory 55 grain loads it keyholes. I was just at Hart Barrels, and while talking to Jim Hart he said that it was do to the longer length of the bullets with plastic tips not being able to stabilize in a 1-14 twist. Has anyone else experience this problem? If it is a know fact why doesn’t Remington make the 22-250 with a 1-12 twist?

Thanks,

Ed
 
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ehkempf said:
If it is a know fact why doesn’t Remington make the 22-250 with a 1-12 twist?
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Why did you buy them in 14tw?
Did you plan to rebarrel in 12tw or tighter?

The 14tw trend is a result of group shooting expectations -by hunters. This twist forces lighter shorter/flat base bullets ahead of faster powders, producing smaller 100yd groups. Problem solved... You can always shoot 50-52gr Jayners for tiny little groups. I do this with a 14tw Cooper.
When you want ACCURACY from heavier hunting bullets, instead of GROUPING from BR bullets, be sure to let the gunmakers know this.
 
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mikecr said:
Why did you buy them in 14tw?
Did you plan to rebarrel in 12tw or tighter?.
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These are factory rifles, they only come with the 1-14 tw. By the way the 55 grain Hornady is a flat base, the Nosler 55 grain is a boattail.
 
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ehkempf said:
I have a question about using either Hornady V-Max or Nosler Ballistic Tip 55 grain bullets in a Remington 22-250 with a 1-14 twist. I have both a Remington 700 VLSS and a 700 SPS Varmint, both with 1-14 twist. They both seem to shoot 50 grain Hornady and Nosler bullets fine, but when it comes to the 55 grain it looks like a shotgun pattern at 100 yards. In fact at 25 yards with the Hornady factory 55 grain loads it keyholes. I was just at Hart Barrels, and while talking to Jim Hart he said that it was do to the longer length of the bullets with plastic tips not being able to stabilize in a 1-14 twist. Has anyone else experience this problem? If it is a know fact why doesn’t Remington make the 22-250 with a 1-12 twist?

Thanks,

Ed
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Mr. Hart is correct: the typical 52 Gr. [FB]custom (.224) bullets, based upon the 0.705" long J4 jacket, result in a finished OAL which is already only marginally stable (Sg, in Std. conditions, less than 1.4). A good 'rule-of-thumb' - for both .22 and 6mm bullets - each 0.032" increase/decrease in OAL is worth about 1.0" in twist rate (longer bullets need a faster twist, while shorter bullets can use a slower rate). When the BIG BRAND rifle manufactures settled on the 14" 'standard twist', the [LONGER for weight] polymer tipped bullets tipped bullets didn't exist - even the 'soft-points' were relatively short. Sg (gyroscopic stability) is primarily about length; weight is just 'along-for-the-ride'. If it's still available, you'll undoubtedly obtain more satisfaction using the Hornady 53 Gr. Match, of the Sierra 53 Gr. Match. RG

P.S. Of course, the above assumes an ACTUAL 14" twist rate - even a slightly slower rate,combined with a longer bullet, will manifest itself pronto, while a slightly slower rate will work in ones favor. Button barrels are not always as marked; +/- 1/4", from the nominal twist, is not uncommon . . . and a larger deviation from the nominal isn't rare. This is THE explanation for the variable results, based on anecdotal/empirical evidence, based upon sample of one, of just a few. In defense of button rifled barrels, I use them often, and, even cut barrels may be miss-marked or, miss-cut. When you get a stinker, it never hurts to determine the actual twist rate. (Up-dated, 11/23,1:50 PM, by RG)
 
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ehkempf said:
These are facrory rifles, they only come with the 1-14 tw. By the way the 55 grain Hornady is a flat base, the Nosler 55 grain is a boattail.
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I shoot the same 55 grain Vmax in my two 22-250's, but they have 1:12 twist barrels. I also shoot the same Vmax in a 1:14 twist .223 at 3250 fps. Shoots just fine with groups running in the fours all the time. I should think that with the greater velocity of the 22-250 that 55 grain Vmax would do just fine. Just a further not, the .223 would not shoot Amax bullets very well
gary
 
12 vs 14 twist

One error in this. Mr kemp implies that .22-250 only comes in 1-14. Sako and Savage, I'm quite sure, both make 12 twists. 14 shpuld have never been the standard for this cal, but Rem determined this long ago. V/R Greg Fowl
 
Greg Fowl said:
One error in this. Mr kemp implies that .22-250 only comes in 1-14. Sako and Savage, I'm quite sure, both make 12 twists. 14 shpuld have never been the standard for this cal, but Rem determined this long ago. V/R Greg Fowl
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You mis-understood my post. I meant that the "Remington 700 22-250's" only come in 1-14 twist.
 
To answer your original question: Keyholeing in my experience is due to NOT having a fast enough twist for the bearing surface length of the bullet being used.

I don't understand what the plastic bullet tip would have to do with keyholeing, but I can always stand to learn something.

Old Cob
 
P Corncob Bob said:
To answer your original question: Keyholeing in my experience is due to NOT having a fast enough twist for the bearing surface length of the bullet being used.

I don't understand what the plastic bullet tip would have to do with keyholeing, but I can always stand to learn something.

Old Cob
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Bob, simply put, for a given weight, the plastic tip makes the bullet LONGER. The bearing surface is, comparatively, insignificant the BIG issue is the LENGTH of the projectile. Here's a comparison: Sierra 55 Gr. Spitzer (#1365) in my collection measure 0.726" (average) in length (a 14" twist is, at best, marginal for a .224 bullet of this length, but they always shot well via my .22/250s, which featured 14" twist barrels), while the newer Sierra 50 Gr. BlitzKing (#1450) average 0.788" long - though 5 grains LIGHTER, via a 14" twist barrel,very close to a wreck! To provide equal gyroscopic stability, this difference - 0.062" - requires almost 2" faster twist rate! Weight, though commonly used to determine twist requirements, barely counts - it's just along for the ride. When it comes to selecting/matching twist rate and bullets, LENGTH is 'where it's at' . . . and with the polymer tipped bullets, and the 'green' offerings (all copper), things have changed rapidly - that is, old misconceptions won't get it done. Interestingly enough, it seems to be SAVAGE who has it figured out. :eek:;)


Oh, and I forgot, for a give length, add a BT and there's another 1/2 inch of twist needed . . . :eek::D RG
 
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Old Cob

Twist is determined mostly by the overall length of the projectile. The plastic tips add length as opposed to a hollow point.
Weight is a factor due to acheivable velocitys.
Keyholing is indeed generally accepted to be twist related.
FWIW I have witnessed keyholing in barrels of appropriate twists due to severe carbon fouling.
 
Greg Fowl said:
One error in this. Mr kemp implies that .22-250 only comes in 1-14. Sako and Savage, I'm quite sure, both make 12 twists. 14 shpuld have never been the standard for this cal, but Rem determined this long ago. V/R Greg Fowl
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I push 55 grain bullets all the time at 3500 fps out of two 22-250's I own (1:12 twist barrels) for about 210,000 rpm. The .223 will push the same bullets at about 140,000 rpm. The 22-250 with the same loads I use, but with a 1:14 twist should come in at about 179.9K rpm. They should work just fine
gary
 
Stability Factor (Sg), Don Miller Twist Rule

The accuracy load in the #6 Nosler guide is 3140 fps with a .223 (1:12 twist, 188,400 rpm) with the 55 gr Ballistic Tip. The SG would be 1.04, although 1.00 is stable 1.40 and above is desireable.

The .22-250 at 3568 fps, the accuracy load in the #6 Nosler guide, (1:14 twist, 183,497 rpm) with the 55 gr Ballistic Tip has an Sg of 0.79, which is not stable.

If you incresed the velocity to 3665 fps, the rpm would equal 188,486 like the .223, but the Sg would still only be 0.80.

I shoot the 55 gr Ballistic tip at 3140 fps in a .223 (1:9, 251,200 rpm) and Sg 1.84 and it groups reliably at all ranges. - nhk
 
It's because stability is not directly tied to RPM's.
So any RPM based stability rule of thumb fails tests.
In fact, the Miller rule of thumb will fail tests now & then, as it too defines limited senarios..
 
I shoot both the mentioned bullets in a 22-250 Rem. (factory 14 tw.) with no problems. What kind of velocity are you shooting? Round count? Toast barrels keyhole.
 
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