just finished reading a pretty one sided article

W

williev18

Guest
ok so toady i opened the new PS magazine to see an article about a new ground breaking muzzle loader. Now dont get me wrong the ultimate firearms muzzle loader lookes very fine indeed, but the authers constant comparison to an old side lock percussion cap muzzle loader is kinda one sided. He seems to have completly missed the entire last decade of 209 ignition inline muzzle loaders. Granted many are of an open bolt desighn and not very safe to prevent escaping gasses, or moisture getting in. but many of the break open setups would do a suficent job of this. Then there is one design that is quite similar to the "revilutoinary" ultimate arms, and its been made by savage for over 8 years now. Granted it doesnt use the pistol casing to house the primer. However the 209 primer is locked very tightly into place in the breech plug by the camming force of the bolt. this has proven to be a tight seal under my own submeging test in my bath tub. not once did it fail to fire after 5 minutes under water. Also in savage traditon both sides of the reciver are ported to channel and accidental gas escape away from the shooter. Savage did this to allow the shooter to utilize larger loads of black powder, and additionaly it was rated for smokless ( something even the ultimate arms doesnt have). My 24" savage BML 10 is very capable of matching the posted velocities in the article, with 250 grain sabots, exspecialy over a stout load of SR-4759 ( wana talk about easy cleaning). and it shoots 1 moa very easily too 300 yards, and im sure further if i had a place to test it. Once agian im not shooting down the new muzzle loader, it seems a very good concept. I just wish the writer had compared it to some thing more modern, not a murcury capped, side lock, shooting goex, and cast lead bullts smeard in bore butter. Im not usualy one to tear apart writers but this time i felt like the whole story wasnt told.
 
My PS arrived today and I've only managed to glance through it, and have to say that from glancing at the captions under the pictures I wasn't terribly impressed. Those things might be muzzle loaders because a modern bullet in a plastic sabot is jammed down the spout, but they seem to abuse the concept of "muzzle loader" to the extreme. It's sort of like using a ballista for archery hunting. I just can't see it. If someone wants to hunt "primitive" then use flint or percussion and nothing fancier than Minie balls for projectiles.

I'm sure that my opinion is in the minority, but if someone wants to hunt with a modern firearm shooting critters at 200 yards and more they should hunt in the general firearm season or whatever it's called wherever. Fire away. I've never hunted with a muzzleloader and have only shot one a few times. It's a challenge though.
 
Got to agree about the fishing with you Francis! When I lived in Seattle the Indians were all out fishing with modern equipment, competing with other fishermen because they had a special (court ordered) allocation of fish they could catch and sell as well, then they could fish along with everyone else too. Fishing and hunting in their "usual and accustomed places" was so that they could feed themselves and their families. NO PROBLEM there. But if you want to compete with modern equipment with everyone else commercially then do it without special treatment.

Everyone says that they want a "level playing field" with just a few dozen advantages you don't enjoy for me.

I'm thinking that Francis is getting to be old and crotchety too from the sounds of it....
 
i'm wondering how some states will react to these new muzzle loaders. Often areas are restricted to shot gun and muzzle loaders for safety reasons, but how is a 500 yard muzzle loader any safer to hunt with in an urban area than a 300 win mag. Honeslty how will an unknowing game warden react to you having a pocket full of primed pistol brass while muzzle loader hunting. what next 45 auto blanks used as a primer. I own a savage bml10 that i use to play shoot at a local black powder range because its fun, but i still hunt with a cva tradions muzzle loader. I might be just me but i love the suspence of waiting for the smoke cloud to clear to find out what realy happened.
 
I agree, evolution of equipment is a bad thing. I think we should apply it to benchrest too, and all the inovations sense it was started should be out lawed to make things more fair.

If your allowed X number of deer, why does it matter how fancy your equipment is, used to hunt those deer? I say use what ever you want. I'm certainly not going to hope for more gun laws to restrick what kind of muzzle loader we can hunt with. Carefull what you wish for.
 
Dick Grosbier said:
Getting to be?
Francis and I have been there for a while.
Click to expand...

And it doesn't stop with you two either ! I happen to agree with all of this. Here in WI., they have hired a deer "Guru" to tell us where have all the deer gone. Fools......8000 killed by cars, ( by count), double that with the ones that ran off and died. Then., double the amount registered with archery, ( for the ones that ran off and died as well ), black powder, " earn a buck," ( meaning )-you must shoot a doe first before you can "earn a buck". But hey , there is still room for more. They could have a season for "spearing" them . (perhaps on horseback ?)
 
Another opinion ;)


as they say in 'Roadhouse,' "opinions vary."

I liked the article. I like the concept and the iteration of the actual rifle, seems a well thought out working gun. I like innovation, I like improvement, I like racing and building and experimenting and making things better. I was kinda' raised around the fool notion that this was not only normal but expected of us "Innovative Americans." I was raised with the idea that "American know how" and "American Ingenuity" were GOOD things.... but as I get older and meet more of my Fellow Americans, as I see people like our current POTUS get fairly well voted into office by my Fellow Americans, as I listen to my Fellow Americans pine for Europe and the Fjords I realize that I've been barking up the wrong tree...ooops, another 'Americanism."

They just slip out.

As far as the deer management goes...... ??? .... huhh? .... There are more and larger deer nationwide than ever in history. I lived for several yrs in Sandstone Minnesota where Jim Jordan's World Record Whitetail was sold at a yard sale, I went to school with Bob Ludwig's kids. That buck was killed in 1914 and stood as the record for almost 80yrs.

Now it's been bested what, a dozen times???


whewww....



i feel much better now



al
 
I hunt deer w/landmines, so I always know when I get mine. Also, they keep the rescue squad in top shape practicin' response, gettin' the choppers in, etc. when some hunter can't read: "NO trespassing/hunting."
Its a sure bet THEY won't be back.

On Geese, I just use Brenneke slugs with proximity fuses, keeps the flocks open, so I can wound plenty stragglers my dog can run down. He likes the heads before he brings them back.
No more problems with 'resident Geese'.
Changed the flyway, too, no more poop on the car, now.

I don't use dynamite for fishing anymore, just a couple super magnetos that will call up enough babies I can use for bait, for the kids on the pond. As Edward Abbey said, the Smith and Wesson model 29 is the handiest fly rod I ever had. I like the M329Sc better, its the lightest fly rod I've had yet; and 2-3 shots, an' soon there's dinner; and y'can throw the heads, tails and guts back to the survivors up/down stream. That's MY idea of 'catch and release'.

BUURRP! OPEN that windah! ahyuk!

Lov that 'Innivativ 'Mericanizm'

I feel better now, too......pweeee--ee
 
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im not saying people shoudnt use the best equiptment available to them, if you hunt out west with nothing but wide open spaces this is the best thing since sliced bread. Providing you have tested and practiced shooting at these disatnces with total certanty of your back drop. The problem i see is here in VT some areas are restricted to shot gun and muzzle loader due to thier closeness to urban sprawl. The problem i see is some one using a rifle like this or even one of the higher powered more conventional model like the savage, or TC in one of theses areas and getting another place closed to hunting or more rules that we dont need put in place. Trust me i dont see this technology causeing any more deer kill in VT our muzzle loader season isnt until december when the deer have all ready seen achery season, youth season, and regular rifle season. What im afriad of is some one gettig desperate and using a rifle like this to sneek in near town and try to snipe one of the few last deer hiding there, and in turn launch a round through it and the neighbors house. I have no problem with technology like this for use in competition by compitent and intelligent shooters like the ones on this site, but when you have a show like VS real hunts advertising guns like this to the general hunting public i can only imagine what out come it can inspire. Also the only problem i had with the article is that has was trying to show that this rifle had stepped us up from the flint lock era and had completly ignored the many other innovations by other companies that had led up to this rifle beeing made. I have muzzle loader hunted since i was 14 and shot my first deer with a CVA traditions kit that my father and i built ourselves, and i still hunt with today. i ve hunted with many variations of the TC's and knights as technology has progressed. i have shot deer and moose at over 300 yards with my savage BML10 in the right circumstances. I dont want to take any thing away from the ultimate arms set up it looks like a well thought out concept, and it certainly seems well made, but its not as big of leap ahead as some may think. but protraying it as such may inspire law makers to think they need to classify it and others like it in a way that can only hurt the sport.
 
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Here in Washington state the rifle wouldn't be considered legal for hunting during the muzzle loading rifle seasons. Here they term it "primitive" season and limit you to caplock with open sights. They keep the spirit of the game via regulation. We don't want guns like this new muzzle loader to be used while the elk are bugling in rut. I don't even think you can use fiberglass ramrods here, at least two people I know of have broken their ramrods this year :)

Same applies during archery season..... no open-on-contact broadheads, no barbed broadheads, no electronics, no optics and no horizontal bow setups.

IMO this takes nothing away from innovation but allows game management through regulation.

al
 
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