I've got a 3 shot Savage

B

bob hardy

Guest
I mean that after 3 shots accuracy begins to go south. My Mod. 12, heavy brl. .223 is a great shooter of 3 shot groups. Say about 1/4" to 3/8" at 100 yds. But invariably the 4th and 5th shots go astray. Not terrible, but def. not in the 3 shot hole. After cleaning, I will get another excellent 3 shot group. 4 and 5 open up a bit. Someone who has a lot more experience than me re benchrest, said that Savage barrels are sometimes a little rough, and build up crud faster than the after market barrels. Sounds good to me, but what should I do about it???
Bob
 
Rough Savage Barrel

I have a savage 223 that is the same way.

It will shoot real small for 5 then go away. Heavy copper. Called savage, they asked me to send it to them. In a moment of brilliance I decided I didn't want to turn loose of a factory rifle that could shoot 5 shot 2's for one group. (fyi - a common pattern was a 5 shot 3 followed by a 7 followed by 1 inch plus if I didn't clean.) I decided to fire lap with of Tubbs kits. Washed out the throat and I have not shot it since. Since then I had another savage 223 that shot pretty good but also copper fouled badly. Fire lapped with dead soft lead bullets at about 800fps. This moved the throat out some, improved cleaning, still shoots good enough for a coyote gun.

Lesson learned. Get about a 100 rounds thru it, if it doesn't improve call savage. They will probably work out something to your satisfaction.
 
Mr. Hardy..."Flyers" can be caused by MANY things,but it sounds like possibly a bedding problem. Savage recommends 25 inch pounds of torque for the action screws. The aluminum bedding blocks don't always fit the bottom of the receiver properly and the action CAN move.
You might want to retorque to about 55-65 inch pounds. It will really need to be skim-bedded and then torqued to 55-65 inch pounds. This is just a suggestion based on my experience...I eventually replaced with a Savage F-class + skim-bedding.
Good luck...good shooting...gpoldblue
 
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i have broken in many savages and have had this problem a few times. First hve you gone through the shoot 5 clean, shoot 5 clean, till you have shot 50 or so rounds through it, if you are still getting alot of fouling try mly bullets and/or the tubbs final finish system, dont be afraid of what Mark had for experiences, i have used this product many times on my factory rifles, ususaly cutting my group size in half. Next i assume you are using hand loads, try moving out closer to the lands a little at a time till the bolt is hard to close, most of my savages have liked the bullet out as far as possible. Third gpoldblue is right about the bedding, but i have gone one step further, and have done some tuning with the action screws, start by loosening both screws, or all 3 depending on the action, then turn the rifle muzzel up and thump the but pad on the floor a few times to settle the recoil lug against the bedding block, then snug the front action screw just past hand tight, then tighten in 5inch pound increments till you reach 30 in/pds. After that just snug the rear screw/ screws and go shoot, tightening in 5 in/pd increments after each group, you should find a sweet spot where the group shrinks and starts to grow again. This will be where you will shoot the best groups, if it still seems erratic, have it glassed and try again.

good luck
Will
 
I bought a laminated Savage stock, and had the rifle glass bedded by a rifle pro, Kim Monthoney. I have not re-torqued it since Kim completed his work. He shot a .123 3 shot group and returned it to me. I shot a .149 3 shot group with it, and was thrilled. However, the 5 shot problem persists. Perhaps I'll try the method described above by Willie. BTW, I'm shooting Sierra MK 69 gr. over 25 grs. Varget, and Hornady Match 68 grs. also 25 grs. Varget. The 2 groups described as .123 and .149 were shot with Ultramax Hornady match 68 grs. I haven't seen that load for sale since.
Bob
 
3 shot groups

Hate to put it this way, but "rifle pro gunsmiths" shouldn't be relying on 3 shot groups to test their work...

I'd suggest you have him look at it again.
 
I have had these remarkably tight 3 shot groups a number of times. However, one aspect is my own behavior. If I have been shooting a while and getting just "fair" or "okay" groups, and then I see I have three shots in one hole, I shift my point of aim to another bullseye so as to "save" this excellent 3 shot group. I'm afraid shots 4 and 5 will spoil it. I will admit this is rather chicken on my part.

What does this mean? My own behavior is partly creating the problem. Now when you shoot a really remarkable 3 shot group, I would not be surprised if you chose not to fire shots 4 and 5, for fear of "spoiling" the group. That's sort of my pattern. My normal proedure is 5 shots to a bull, unless I can see I have a one-hole 3 shot group.

So maybe it is not the rifle, but at least partly us.
 
It sounds like you are getting some pretty small 3 shot groups, but how often are you getting them, if you shoot 10- 3 shot groups, is the average size about the same as the 4/5 shot flyers you are getting, after one of your good 3 shot groups. Also are you shooting over wind flags, even a small wind condition left unnoticed can open up a group on a 223 pretty easy. If your average 5 shot group is between 1/2 and 3/4 of an inch with a factory barreled model 12, its realy all you can reasonably expect. Not that they can't do smaller occasionaly, it's not the norm. The loads you listed above, are these hand loads, or something from a custom shop, or black hills. If you are not loading your own, it is going to be realy hard to tune your load to the rifle, loosing controll over powder charge, and seating depth. Also the bullet weights you lised seemed like they would be on the hairy edge of the 1-9 twist in a savage barrel, try some 55's. My model 12lrpv loves a 55gr berger in front of 23gr H4198 seated pretty tight against the lands.

Good luck and shoot straight
Will
 
Mr. Hardy...Your 3 shot groups of low .1's is VERY good. i don't know where/why you're losing shots 4 & 5,but I do know it it sure doesn't take much when you're shooting that tight. Apparently YOU know what you're doing...low .1's are hard to come by. I spent over 2 years working with my LRPV trying to get it to shoot to my satisfaction..5 shot groups under .5"@200yds. I'm using VV N135 & 69gn Sierra'a. I shot Varget,IMR4895(better),H4895,AA2230,AA2520,BLC-2,VV N140(even better),and now I use VV N135. I've shot bullets from 50gns to 75gns(Sierra,Berger,Hornady,and Nosler). You're doing good---you'll get it shooting to your satisfaction. Good luck...good shooting...gpoldblue
 
Thanks gpoldblue. I appreciate the encouraging remarks. I obviously haven't tried everything, but it seems to me that if the rifle is capable of tiny 3 shot groups, a 5 shot group of similar size should be available. Just 2 days ago the same thing happened again. I used Sierra 69 MKs and Hornady Match 68s. I started with a clean barrel, and I cleaned the barrel between the 5 shot groups. First 3 with the MKs were in one hole. 4&5 were out by about .5". Same thing with the Hornadys, but a slightly larger single hole for the first 3. I'm going to try 3 shots clean and fire 2 more, and see what happens.
Willie, after purchasing the Savage 12, I called Black Hills to see what bullet they recommended for the 1-9 twist barrel. They said 68-69. Called Savage, and they said same thing. BTW that 55gr. load of 23gr. 4198 is pretty hot. I just loaded some 52MKs which called for a max of 21.5. But, if you're getting good results with no probs. way to go.
Bob
 
I've seen this type of behavior in every factory barrel I've owned. Most folks just accept it.
Factory barrels have quite a bit of personality built in. Could be your barrels way of sayin I want to shoot for ya but I don't like Varget. Gotta try some different powders until you stumble on one that gives a consistent bore fouling condition. I'm not big on 223's but try some Win 748. A little more soot in the tube might be just the ticket. Has worked for me in several 204R barrels that were fussy.
I've run over 400 rds without cleaning in these 204's and accuracy remains steady.
Ramshot X-Terminator in the 6ppc and 6BR (68gn bullets) is another prime example of good fouling conditions. Might not be quite as accurate as N-133 in the ppc but its darn close and no frequent cleaning is required. My ppc will go nuts after 40 rds of 133. X-Term will run all season with just a dry patch every so often if its been sittin.
IMR-4350 in a 243 is another for me.

One Sav 204R tube I have has very shallow lands. Shoots much like yours. Super accurate from a clean bore for 3-5 shots then just watch it go haywire. I spent roughly 1000rds trying to tame that one. Made little progress and eventually unscrewed it. Conqering the factory gremlins is only fun for so long and in this case impossible.

Given a decent barrel its all about fouling condition. need to find a powder that does not allow copper to accumulate while also not building up layers of carbon. Find a consisient bore condition and long term consistent accuracy is usually close by. Use a powder/velocity that allows fouling to change (bore condition)and accuracy will change right along with it.
Look and listen to that factory barrel. It'll be a good education taming it.
 
I had a brief range session Sat. My buddy and I shot the Savage after I treated the barrel with some KG bore polish. I then fired 5 shots with the polish in the bore. Cleaned it and started shooting for real. Don't know if this is the answer, but we had 4 groups of 5 all within 3/4". What makes this noteworthy is that I had loaded some Rem. match 62 gr. and some 52gr MK. This gun doesn't usually shoot the lighter bullets very well. I'm going back later this week with some 68 and 69 gr bullets and see what happens. BTW, after cleaning the barrel, I ran through a couple of patches treated with mil tec. Just curious to see what's next.
Bob
 
Something's working here. Could be the bore polish, the mil tec, or different bullets. Shot a nice .25 5 shot group with MKs 69gr over 25 Varget. Next group was wasn't so hot. Looks like progress over the 3 shot group.
Bob
 
Try cleaning it less.
A couple of my rifles shoot much better after 10 or so rounds.
Are you competing or is it a varmint rifle?
 
definitly try streaching out your cleaning regiment, my even my $600 30br barrel won't settle in untill it has 15 or so shots fired.
 
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