Itar

B

BobB

Guest
Who's paying it?

I see so much conflict on the net about it.

Some that ALL manufactureres must pay it.

The ATF says that only class 08,09,10 and 11 manufacturers must be registered with AECA from which ITAR comes from and must pay the 2250 tax.

I know a couple of well known 07 manufacturers and none of them pay it.

Some insist that it says ALL manufactureres that make anything that is on the USML.

Others say that since the act deals specifically with import/export of certain goods that the tax is only for those that makes stuff to sell to the government or for export.

Yet others insist that the one man shops that make guns or assembly them from new componets that make the gun for sale must have it.

What's the general consensus on ITAR?
 
We pay it as an 07. It says that if you are manufacturing firearms or firearm parts that you must be registered with the Department of State whether you export or not. It is not worth the risk. In my opinion DOS agents are ATF agents that have gone to Grad school. I just as soon not have to deal with them. I have also been told by DOS personnel that they really would not have to work with Smal Businesses as we can't generate enough income to pay thier fines. They would just as soon that we all sell out to larger corperations. Read the regs on the DOS site not the ATF site. Then have your attorneyread them for you.

We are a 2 person shop and I was not aware of this requirement until Obama came in to office.

Lowell
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Well that makes sense.

Not enough money in the small buisnesses to make it worth their while. Being the Government,
I should have figured that out.
Its pretty obvious that they do what they can to tax or legislate small companys out of existence.

Thanks for the reply.
 
ATF Not a good resource

The ATF is not a good resource for determining if you need to pay a fee to the State Department--the ATF understands ATF material (well, most of the time), but many of the inspectors/agents are not trained on the requirements of ITAR. There are many of us 07 ffl's registered with US State Department per the guidelines. I know a couple that were not and have gotten a friendly phone call/letter telling them to get registered and pay up! I also know at least one manufacturer that makes firearms parts that does not require an ffl, but got "caught" by the US State Department and had to register and "pay up".

Being one that has a livelihood that depends on this business-I would not be one to try to operate until caught.
 
State Department Registration for Manufactures 07

Jim is right.

The BATF came to inspect my business. The inspector asked to see my copies of my federal excise taxes.(not in her job description or jurisdiction) All ammunition and firearms manufactures are required to file federal excise tax reports and pay Excise tax. Remember after 9/11 the BATF was split the BATF went under DOJ and the TTB (Tax and Taffif Bureau was formed and stayed under Treasury. Two distinctly different federal agencies. In most cases they don't even like working together.

I have a Type 6 Ammunition Manufacturing License and load custom ammunition for my customers. I wrote a letter to the TTB for a clarification on my having to pay federal excise tax if my customers provided all the ammunition components and all I did was provide the expertise, loaders, and labor. The TTB said I was exempt from reporting or paying the excise tax.

The BATF Inspector said I was wrong. So I produced the letter from the TTB and she about choked. Then asked for a copy.

There is a great deal of information on the internet. There are a greater deal of federal emloyees who are bureacrats. There are even more who think they know it all. It is my recomendation to check out any question you might have and to get the correct documentation (in writing) . If you have a legal question hire a lawyer to get your answers. It puts an insulation factor between you and the goverment.

I have 30 years experience as a government employee and I certainly don't trust the bastards. If someone shows up at your door and says they are from the government and they are there to help you, shut the door and run.

The only way to deal with the government is to out document them at their own game. That means doing it right and not half asses. Get the facts and do everything by the book. Ignorance is not an acceptable excuse.

If you have questions get them answered in writing by the agency incharge of that type of business.

Nat Lambeth
 
My ATF examiner told me that I do not have to pay exise taxes if I produce less than 50 guns a year.

So, lets say that I mkae 49 custom rifles...I am exempt.

If I make 50 or more, then I must pay the 10 or 11 % exise tax on each one.

That is even stated on the ATF application.

Guess what? I'm stopping at 49 no matter what...
 
Has anyone with a 07 FFL received a letter about registering with the US State Dept. for ITAR compliance from either the ATF or the US State Dept? I have been speaking with the NRA this week and they said they may be able to help us. They also said they have had alot of calls from 07 FFL holders. So, I know I am not the only one that does not like this. Just remember if you are not at the table you are on the menu. If you have received a letter please PM me Thanks, Boe
 
Last edited:
Type 07 FFL

The BATF tried to slip many functons done by type 01 gunsmiths and non liccensees/ businesses under the radar to requiring a type 07 Manufactures after 9/11. Now requiring non licensee vendors and non serial numbered parts manufactures to need to have a type 07 Manufactures license. Just ask the barrel manufactures, PT&G, trigger makers, coatings companies, etc.

This has been addressed more by the NSSF than the NRA.

Nat Lambeth
 
I think a lot of folks read about ITAR and think (hope) that it does not apply to them. If you read http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/documents/official_itar/ITAR_Part_121.pdf you will find that they exclude Shotguns with barrels over 18", muzzleloading weapons, BB & Pellet guns and not much else. They do define each type of firearm and states that manufacturering barrels, recievers cylinders, triggers etc must be licensed whether they export or not. I don't think that they define military weapons by the same standards as the NSSF. We must also remember that we assure everyone that the 2nd admendment has nothing to do with hunting or sport use of firearms.

JMHO
Lowell
 
BobB said:
My ATF examiner told me that I do not have to pay exise taxes if I produce less than 50 guns a year.

So, lets say that I mkae 49 custom rifles...I am exempt.

If I make 50 or more, then I must pay the 10 or 11 % exise tax on each one.

That is even stated on the ATF application.

Guess what? I'm stopping at 49 no matter what...
Click to expand...

Any time "50 firearms" and the BATFE are mentioned in the same breath I want to see the regulation in writing, no matter which license is being discussed.

Especially if an agent says that first hand. Let's see the reg, and then if it's ambiguous, let's see the (current) supporting letters interpreting the reg. Otherwise, it's hearsay.
 
I think the problem comes in with ITAR is when: What constitutes manufacturing? From what the attorney with the NRA told me last week the BATF takes the position that lets say; A customer brings a Remington 700 to your shop to replace a worn out barrel, And you do, then you are a manufacturer. And if you replace a stock you are a manufacturer. If you change the grips on a pistol you are a manufacturer. Thats like taking your car to get worn out tires changed and the guy that CHANGES the tires is a manufacturer. Give me a break! Boe
 
Last edited:
Any time "50 firearms" and the BATFE are mentioned in the same breath I want to see the regulation in writing, no matter which license is being discussed.

Especially if an agent says that first hand. Let's see the reg, and then if it's ambiguous, let's see the (current) supporting letters interpreting the reg. Otherwise, it's hearsay.
Click to expand...

Here's your hearsay...;)

http://www.ttb.gov/applications/pdf/50_gun_exemption.pdf

First paragraph...
This information sheet announces the recently enacted amendment to the provisions of
Title 26, United States Code, Section 4182 that provides an exemption from the
firearms and ammunition excise tax (FAET) as to any pistol, revolver, or firearm (article)
if it was manufactured, produced or imported by a person who manufacturers, produces
or imports less than an aggregate of 50 such articles during the calendar year.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
We are talking about two different taxations, The FAET and any requirements or exceptions are seperate from any of the ITAR regulations. I see nothing in ITAR regs that exempts the manufacturing of any number of firearms from ITAR registration or fees and this is how my attorney reads it also.

My rant for the evening

ATF is a politacally controlled agency that changes at the whims of the people appointed to run the agency so of course the enforcement of rules and laws change. If a president appoints a fire eating gun control freak to head the agency, every rule that is read can be redefined by what will win favor with the new "bosses" The reverse is also true.

We just went through a huge (for me) thing over applying CeraKote to firearms and what it took for me to do that for other manufacturers. Fortunately someone with some real understanding of what really goes on in a gunshop re-defiened the rule that was actually part of the NFA and got a lot of people off the hook.

Lowell
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I know it's two different taxes.

One thing about it...the socialist bastards in office wouldnt really have to ban guns, they could just tax the manufactureres to death and eventually run them out of buisness, which would pretty much accomplish the same thing, it'd just take awhile.
 
After reading Itar 22 I was under the impression a manufacture not making parts that fell under the military description and one who did not export could file a declaration of intent letter with the State department. This was and exemption to paying the Itar tarriff. I may change my license from a Type 01 to a type 07 the next go round. I plan to do some writing of letters to the state department in the up coming months on this very subject.

Nat Lambeth
 
Nat,

I make sight mounts for M2HB machineguns so it is not an option for me but when I read it and then talk with my attorney and they read it, they asked me what weapon was not based of military use and with the exemptions spelled out they way they are we felt that most any weapon except that short list would be covered by DOS rules. Do I agree with them no, but I would not recommend taking a chance. Also We believe that have only one gun or part that can be linked to military style use would be enough to require the license, 1911 45s, mauser, springfield, enfield, remington, winchester, etc. all oare based off of and still used by military orgaizations.
JMHO
Lowell
Lowell
 
My sources beleive that any article made specifically for military use is subject to that .
If you look at the enforcement section of the law, it specifically adresses exporting without a license.

Dont export, no problem. Do buisness with the government, military or export,get a license.
 
Registration is required

BobB said:
My sources beleive that any article made specifically for military use is subject to that .
If you look at the enforcement section of the law, it specifically adresses exporting without a license.

Dont export, no problem. Do business with the government, military or export,get a license.
Click to expand...

Bob
Our hunting rifles, benchrest rifles, over the course rifles are all considered small arms as listed in the ITAR. From hands on experience with these regulations for many years now (over 20), manufacturers of parts for hunting and BR rifles ARE required to register with the state Department. That includes magazine box makers, trigger makers, stock makers, barrel makers, scope ring makers, muzzlebrake makers. There are a number of members of our small BR community that have found this out the hard way. There are even some that do not have to a ffl because they never have a receiver or rifle in their shop, but they make parts such as magazine boxes, bolts, floorplates, trigger guards and they have been contacted by the State Department and told to register. I am not going to mention any names-but do your research carefully, because sooner or later you will get caught if you decide not to register. Most of the time, the State Department has simply allowed the individual to pay up for the current year and the past has been ignored. However, I am not certain that it would be treated that way if there was evidence that someone deliberately tried to not register after they had been presented with the requirements.

Definitely seek legal counsel--but it would be advisable to directly ask the State Department. The treaty that these regulations fall under was about small arms control-not military arms control.

Jim
 
Thats the problem. Some laywers say yes, you must pay it, and some say no.Some manufactures pay it and lots of them dont.

It looks to me as that the right way to go would be to get a 01, do the gunsmithing and not worry about ITAR. Since it is the source of much confusion, why mess with it?

If the State Dept,is silly enough to expect small time gunbuilders that dont export anything and probably wont sell to anyone outside of their own town to pay the fee, then it seems best to me to not go the 07 route and just leave them out of the picture.
 
We read the law the same way that Jim does. In reality it really makes no difference to us if you register or not. That is a business decision that only you can make. People asked for input and I gave mine. I hope that your business plan is successful for you and that we are both able to stay in business to provide for our fellow shooters. Good luck and have a great day.

Lowell
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top