Is this where we are going .....?

M

Mak

Guest
As a very new convert to RFBR after a long time " out in the cold" with rimfire field shooting, I've watched the wwaccuracy forum with some interest and always look to learn stuff from some really experienced shooters.
I'm dismayed to see a locked forum full of synchophants and foghorns bleating about the " next big thing".
I'm pushed to think of another "sport" so elitist and exclusionary and I fail to see a single bit of good come from it.
It really discourages "father son" participation in a sport which should have the same gear available to everyone, if you can find the funds...
The whole concept of a bunch of CYankeees dominating a sport with dedicated equipment is a tad on the nose to me.
So please, help me understand what I'm missing here, cos the people I have so far associated with in this sport are generous, kind and humble.

Rgds

MK
Yep Australia
 
Given that I don't have time to find/figure out what you're talking about, would you kindly explain it a bit more. While I'm waiting, I'll look up "synchophants" so I'll know a bit more about what you're sayin'.

OK - didn't take that long to look it up. Might not even say I edited the post. Now I know something about what you're sayin'...but not WHAT you're sayin'.
 
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Ok Wilbur
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
I'll try to be more understandable..
My point was that there seems to be a Calfee culture where a minority group have access to allegedly " cutting edge technology" while everyone else buys regular 'off the shelf' components and engages their local gunsmith to get it working as well as possible.
And then gets out there and refines their skill working with the variables like windy days, mirage etc.
Good luck to Bill.
No insult intended to him and his achievements.
I deliberately overlook some of the more contentious hyperbole.

It bothers me to see a "breakaway" group who seem to have exclusive access to a particular technology.

Yeah I know, F1 racing, Luge downhill etc all have money/technology advantage as their primary success tools.
I just raised the question as to whether this sport is in that part of town as well..
Hope this makes sense..?
 
Hi Mak,

I'm sure that you won't be loosing any sleep over it and the oddball circus site your referring to, but rest assure the sport/hobby for the majority is doing good and we here in the US who participate in 22LR Benchrest don't really pay a whole lot of attention to the hoopla that comes out of that site. Matches go on and people get together and enjoy the company of each other and the sport. Our ARA club will be kicking off the season this coming Wednesday and I doubt anyone will even mention anything coming off of that site. We'll talk about the new scoring shack we've built, look to see if anyone got any new toys over the winter, and the general stuff ole guys talk about at the matches. Something to note about your reference to the father/son participation, Joe and Lisa Chacon, who are starting up a new game, ABRA, run a match at the club monthly and at the past one there were 9 juniors, both sons and daughters, who shot with the adults. It's a fun time with family and friends and no one even talks about that stuff your referring to. So my advise is get out and enjoy it, encourage our youth to participate and just have a good time.

Take Care,
Les Williams
 
Calfee knows how to build a good rifle, but he has built some average to stinkers too. He puts his best stuff in the hands of some good shooters but the rest of us aren't intimidated. There are other smiths who can build good rifles too. The WLM has an ego of monumental size. He thinks he is rimfire benchrest. He once was universally respected in this game but his hubris has cost him. Any dominance in this sport resides solely in his mind. Like any of us, his customers have good and bad days. No one is running from them. Don't buy into his narcissistic ramblings. Most of us haven't drank the kool-aid. He does not understand the virtue of humility and that it is more meaningful to have others sing your praises than blow your own horn. It's sad really.
 
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Article 2. from WWA, Home site:

2. You can say what you want. We don't expect everybody to be dead serious. Joking will not get you banned. What will get you banned? Making personal attacks against another user is the big one. Since most of those we encounter are against Bill Calfee, this site is somewhat known as a Calfee protectorate. So be it, everyone receives the same treatment.2. You can say what you want. We don't expect everybody to be dead serious. Joking will not get you banned. What will get you banned? Making personal attacks against another user is the big one. Since most of those we encounter are against Bill Calfee, this site is somewhat known as a Calfee protectorate. So be it, everyone receives the same treatment.
 
Paul & Brock said:
Article 2. from WWA, Home site:

2. You can say what you want. We don't expect everybody to be dead serious. Joking will not get you banned. What will get you banned? Making personal attacks against another user is the big one. Since most of those we encounter are against Bill Calfee, this site is somewhat known as a Calfee protectorate. So be it, everyone receives the same treatment.2. You can say what you want. We don't expect everybody to be dead serious. Joking will not get you banned. What will get you banned? Making personal attacks against another user is the big one. Since most of those we encounter are against Bill Calfee, this site is somewhat known as a Calfee protectorate. So be it, everyone receives the same treatment.
Click to expand...

If you choose to play in that litterbox then those are the rules. It's a love fest for one gunsmith and pretty much all it is. Every once in a while something sneaks in that's not about him but you'll see that things get back to BC pretty quickly–even if it's just about him getting up to pee-pee.

Bill B. summed it up really well. If you've shot for any length of time you'll see some good shooters with and without his rifles. Plenty of other great smiths out there that can build you a rifle that can beat a Calfee rifle.
 
OK - that about sums it up.

1. Bill Calfee builds some really, really good rifles.
2. Others build some really, really good rifles.
3. That site is very much pro-Calfee.

There, I think I got it all in those three statements. If you found yourself able to buy a Calfee rifle, don't turn down the opportunity because of that web site....unless it is one that doesn't shoot well and you wouldn't want that one at any price.

There is a long explanation of how this happened. The short story - Bill became determined to have such a site and tried to have this one. I didn't seem to like the way he "operated" and finally stated that he couldn't post. Another fellow created a site where Bill could post and then I don't know what happened from there.

Actually, I've let this thread go for a while because it's an explanation thread of how it is on Rimfire forums about the web. There's another thread somewhere that probably needs deleted but I can't tell either way. Bottom line is:

Bill Calfee is a great gunsmith. Alternatively, he doesn't have the etiquette to post here and I'm remorseful about that.
 
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Wilbur said:
OK - that about sums it up.

1. Bill Calfee builds some really, really good rifles.
2. Others build some really, really good rifles.
3. That site is very much pro-Calfee.

There, I think I got it all in those three statements. If you found yourself able to but a Calfee rifle, don't turn down the opportunity because of that web site....unless it is one that doesn't shoot well and you wouldn't want that one at any price.

There is a long explanation of how this happened. The short story - Bill became determined to have such a site and tried to have this one. I didn't seem to like the way he "operated" and finally stated that he couldn't post. Another fellow created a site where Bill could post and then I don't know what happened from there.

Actually, I've let this thread go for a while because it's an explanation thread of how it is on Rimfire forums about the web. There's another thread somewhere that probably needs deleted but I can't tell either way. Bottom line is:

Bill Calfee is a great gunsmith. Alternatively, he doesn't have the etiquette to post here and I'm remorseful about that.
Click to expand...


Way to go Wilbur, to use a sometimes overworked phrase "Well said".

Mak, RFBR folks are as nice a bunch of people as you could want to meet. You will find that most are willing to help you in anyway they can, either at matches or here on this board. It is really a shame that there seems to be so much discord between two fractions. I find it interesting that most of the same folks that post over at those sites also visit this site. When they are here they seem to act like the gentlemen they are but when they are on the other sites the fangs seem to come out. Most of us old time IR50/50 shooters like the piece and quiet here but it you have a question you will usually get a answer, quite often several.

Wilbur, thanks for maintaining this site, you have done a good job for many years. Let's hope for many more!

Al
 
Mak, what you should not lose sight of is that forums in general are not necessarily the most reflective of the rimfire BR universe. Some good stuff is found, you need a good filter, and realize how many very good and sharing people never are found on forums. The forum you mentioned is in place entirely as a venue for one individual, good or bad.
 
Mak One thing that we all are is human. And unfortunately that means that we all seek ways to use technology to improve on our human shortcomings. Add to that the competition factor and we go nuts. For over 50 years every shooting "sport" in which I have competed has seen it's share of "BEST EVER WILL RESHAPE THE SPORT" and then the next month or year it is "IMPROVED" or a new "BEST EVER". And it is the same for Fishing, Golf, Darts, Archery, Phones Etc.
What also remains the same is that in every form of human endeavor there are the FEW whose egos are so overblown that as far as they are concerned they can do no wrong and everything they think, make or believe is the ONLY correct thing.
If you ever get a chance to look at a 60's or 70' vintage Herter's catalog read some of Jacques Herter's articles on his products and compare them with some of the giant egos of today and you will see it has always been this way.
Just remember that for every 1 ego there are 100+ that are as good or better and just go along quietly getting the job done AND improved without any fanfare.
Chip King
 
Its not always about the equipment

There is more to getting good scores in RFBR than top notch, cutting edge equipment. When shooting inside the playing field is almost level. A really well built, well smithed, well blueprinted rifle, with really good ammo, is capable of producing almost perfect scores. Which in IR50/50 is 250-25 Xs being perfect, usually one or two will put up scores of 250-20 to 250-23. On the other hand a non smithed, non blueprinted, 50 year old OEM target rifle, without a tuner, with really good ammo, can produce scores of 248-250 with 15-22Xs. Now when the shooting goes outdoors the playing field changes, it will be the shooters that read the weather conditions that will prevail. I am not knocking good equipment, but it takes more than that, to win in this game. Put a set of off the shelf golf clubs in the hands of a pro and the best set of custom clubs money can buy, in a amateur's hands and see who wins. Its not always about the equipment.

George
 
Mak, here is my take on some of this:

Most of the chatter on two of the other sites is about the Unlimited Games. Unlimited being the key word. Almost anything goes in the Unlimited games, equipment wise. There seem to be more folks who prefer that avenue, when one looks at their match attendence numbers. There are a number of Breast Beaters on those sights who appear to believe anyone who doesn't think the same way they do is an idiot, or, at the very least, inferior somehow. I don't know what they think is gained by that kid of attitude but there are a few people who have it and seem to try to belittle others who don't think the way they do. The test of one being a Gentleman becomes somewhat strained, if you know what I mean. Perhaps they don't understand that it is nearly impossible to "Rib" someone in print and not appear to be what I have discribed.

There are also a few, what I call, FKA's on these sights. Regardless of what is brought up, they always have the exclusive answer and god forbid one wish to hear a differing or other point of view. Over the years, I have, at times, "taken the bait" and sparred with them. I think I have finally learned that the old addage that goes, " if you wrestle with a pig, the pig likes it and you only get dirty" applies. Where I grew up, the term "Pig Headed" was used to decribe folks like that. Perhaps that is short for the wresteling thing, I'm not sure.

The bottom line is, almost all of the people who participate in these games are gentelmen and will help you in any way they can. I think one must learn to ask specific questions and listen to the answers they receive. Not all the answers will apply to you but it's up to you to figure out the good stuff. From time to time, there are Father- Son participants that become involved in Benchrest. Often the Son will out-shine the Father. Some dads are pleased and I have seen one or two who can't handle being bested by their Son, so that situation is something to consider, perhaps.


I've been at Competative Benchrest since the middle 90's. Over that time, I have seen a number of myths exploded. There are a lot more that need to go the same route, IMHO. There are some basic paramaters that must be present to have a winning rifle. The difficult thing is to find the great barrels. For the consumer, it's pretty much a crap shoot; finding them. Get a great barrel and life gets easier in a hurry.

Learn to read the flags. Learn to read the flags. Oh, and did I say, Learn to read the flags?

Pete
 
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Mak

I have found what Peter is saying to be true in Australia as well.
All the blokes that I shoot with and have meet in the few competitions I have shot in, have been real nice people.
They have always been willing to answer my questions no matter how silly that they probably are .
I also realise that it takes no small amount of effort to organise and run these events and it is always done happily and in good spirits.
Thankyou to all the blokes that organise and run these competitions we appreciate your hard work.
There is something very calming about shooting benchrest and I really enjoy fun of punching that bullseye.
I am trying to get my fifteen year son to shoot with me but it is pretty hard to compete against youthful endeavours. i.e. girls
He will get involved if he wants to one day and he is always interested in the targets I bring home which is nice.
I would like nothing more for him beat me, as you only ever want the best for your kids but he has to want to do it.
Don't get to worried about what the forums personalities rave on about, have a laugh at the funny stuff and learn from the good stuff.
Though sometimes its hard to not tell them to get their hand off it though, you have to sometimes just walk away from computer.
kind regards Ben
 
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