intigrated tuner tests at gene beggs shooting facilty.

T

tim in tx

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let me say first that genes place is the finest shooting facilty i have had the pleasure to shoot in,wow what a place.it was absolute heaven for reliable testing and total comfort with central air conditioning and i got to see some of genes neat wind probes and gadgets too.i must say that i am a 1000yd shooter but do most testing at 100yds so what i am trying to do is to duplicate a true no tune gun but of a different taper and length for 1000yds but i calibrate it at 100yds for the rough tuning,the final calibrations will be done at 1000yds.however these tests can work for 100yds as well ,but this test was to calibrate a 6 dasher,105vlds, 1.250 straight taper to 1inch and then bells back out in the last 7 inches or so of the barrel,the muzzle is recessed aprox 4.25 inches with a 32 degree face down inside and then crowned at 45 degrees .the calibration standard is a weak middle barrel,tottally different from the tapered barrel ,but i want them to shoot the exact same. in essence i want the straight taper barrel to put a round 60 fps slower at .600 higher then the fast round for this particular trajectory .the reasoning behind that is the weak middle barrel has had these same 2 calibration loads converged at 1000yds.then come back to 100yds and see where the slow round hits above the fast round which in genes tunnel was .600 so we now have to make the straight taper do the same thing by taking weight off of the muzzle.this is a fairly narrow spot around 2 ounces ,so by trimming 1 ounce at a time we would not miss the spot we needed to be in. so gene took a few shots with the weak middle ,in 3 different times averaged out the slow shots were hitting at .600,so then we went to lunch and got stuffed and then got back to work, so then we screwed on the straight taper barrel,and gene started pulling the trigger again and at 4.25 inches recessed , the same 2 loads were used and the slow shots were quite a bit low, over a 1/2 an inch i know so then we started cutting the barrel with a chopsaw and deburring the muzzle opening and then shooting again,about an ounce at a time worth of metal was cut off,as we did the 2 differing loads started to converge,but for long range i had to see a slow round hitting higher ,so if i have a round that happens to shoot out slow it will be aimed higher for a proper correction at 1000yds and aimed lower for the fast rounds.it just takes a specific amount of weight to do that so when we got to the 4th trim,they started to change orientation and the slow loads were hitting higher but would not in the next time so we were not quite there yet ,so we decided to give the barrel a good cleaning and and started trimming again,on the next trim we hit it and the slow rounds were hitting right at .600.the 2 barrels are now hitting the same, so in conclusion same loads with different barrel contours and different bore length ,but doing the same thing and with the same amount of weight in front of the muzzle at least within 100/1000ths in length so i would estimate 5 ounces when the tuner is intigrated.i knew i could acheive this but didnt know the weight would be so close to the same weight in front of the muzzle.man what a ride. tim in tx
 
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Tim,
I like it. You had a logical objective and your test procedure got you there. Please keep us informed of further progress.

Cheers,
Keith
 
integrated tuner tests continued,well after genes gracious help i headed back home just just itching to get this thing out to 1000yds . after the straight taper was matched to the weak middle at 100yds now we had to confirm the 2 loads are hitting the same elevation at 1000yds for the final tuning.after this was done i ended up cutting the barrel back about 100/1000ths which made an exact correction needed to make to 2 loads converge to an inch of vertical at 1000yds.now we have to explore the width of tune or in other words the amount of whip i can get out of this hv taper,i had reservations about the width of tune with a this much stiffer barrel over the weak middle because of past testing,so today the same 2 calibration loads put the velocity range at 2810-2870fps spread,so all velocites within that range all hit same height on target or converged at 1000yds.now i want to starting running them up to speed to explore the range of velocities that will stay in the hole so now loads are sped up little by little .5 gr at a time.as they got faster they were still hitting at the same elevation in the area if 2900-2960 ,when i got to 2990 fps they were hitting high on the target[about 6 inches]so now i was out of the upswing in other words just before it, as far as the slow end limits it was evident very fast,at 2780 the loads were hitting out the bottom about 6 inches as well,so that was the limit on the lower end of the velocites or just at the top of the upswing,so the overall width of velocity spreads to hit the same hole,which is an indicator of tune width is conservatively between 2810-2950.not too bad but on the weak middle which has a very slow long upswing so far i have not found a limit yet at least outside of 2810-3050,the weak middle can put all velocities into the same elevation only at 1000yds,but the straight taper can only do it within a limited range therefore a limited tune width.this type of tuning can be done at 50 and 100yds or 200 , if you have velocity variance it just depends on what yardage you make them converge to one tiny little hole but if you have very little velocity variance the rifle will shoot well at any yardage.i will try some more testing later in the year and can certainly post it if you guys are interested.good luck to all. tim in tx
 
tim in tx said:
... the weak middle which has a very slow long upswing so far i have not found a limit yet at least outside of 2810-3050,the weak middle can put all velocities into the same elevation only at 1000yds,but the straight taper can only do it within a limited range therefore a limited tune width.
Click to expand...

Tim,
Thanks again for posting. It is great to see test results that confirm barrel motion theory. One small comment, though, on your interpretation of what these two barrels are doing: In order for a barrel to compensate for different muzzle velocities, it must be swinging upward at just the right speed, regardless of the barrel contour. The longer it moves at that speed, the wider the window. Your weak middle barrel is moving at the same speed within the window as the straight taper, it is just moving at that speed for a longer time.
You've got a nice wide window with the weak middle barrel. If you can adjust the load according to conditions to keep muzzle velocity in that window, then you should always have minimum vertical, at least from this effect.;)

Thanks again,
Keith
 
mks said:
Tim,
Thanks again for posting. It is great to see test results that confirm barrel motion theory. One small comment, though, on your interpretation of what these two barrels are doing: In order for a barrel to compensate for different muzzle velocities, it must be swinging upward at just the right speed, regardless of the barrel contour. The longer it moves at that speed, the wider the window. Your weak middle barrel is moving at the same speed within the window as the straight taper, it is just moving at that speed for a longer time.
You've got a nice wide window with the weak middle barrel. If you can adjust the load according to conditions to keep muzzle velocity in that window, then you should always have minimum vertical, at least from this effect.;)

Thanks again,
Keith
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hey keith , i tottally agree and with what you mean about the speed of upswing,kinds proves what you are saying since the weight ended up being exactly the same weight in front of the muzzles.what i am hoping to do is to set very large extremes and it is all linier in between if there are no high frequency ripples.it is going to take time to confirm in my mind to near 100% by way a whole season of agg shooting,now we are season 2 it is time to re re confirm what i have acheived with the weak middle and main goal was to not to have to adjust anything with just 1 load regardless of atmospheric condition [got that one from don lol]and be able to shoot multiple yardages with level velocites on top of that to equalize wind drift for the best tune possible.the weak middle has been tested against the ppcs and the 30brs at short range at temp ranges of 70-103 degrees and up north at the 1000yd nats at 60 degrees with 1 load so far it has worked well.i hope the trend continues.i just pick a load that is right to the top of velocites but with no pressure signs at the hottest temp i would shoot and leave it alone.to continue to put this to the test i am working on a deal to let a buddy test it in raton ,nm imediately after i shoot it in harris mn to go to as many differing atmospheres as possible.i have heard the horror stories about beng in tune here and there but not a raton nm.they say you have to tune there to find your tune due to real low humiditys,large temp swings and at very high elevations.so that should be as good test and or confimation to add to list that is growing little by little.the straight taper is not looking too promising by way of no adjustments needed but we will see later in the year when it gets down in the 60s probably late jan knowing texas weather.keith your comments and anyones are more than welcome.if i am proved wrong well i still learned somthing . tim in tx
 
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Tim,
Varmint Al's simulations showed that the weak middle barrel was promising, so it is reassuring that your tests show this, too. I wonder if you would mind sharing the final dimensions of your weak middle barrels, for the Dasher, PPC and 30BR. I am especially curious if the PPC and 30BR barrels ended up close to the same to eliminate vertical at the same yardage. Also, were they in the same stock?

Cheers,
Keith
 
keith sir , what i meant was i tested the rifle at local club matches by shooting against really good shooters with ppcs,and 30brs,as well as the 1000yds nationals last year i only have done the integrated tuner on 2 barrels. 1 case design 6 dasher,same stock , action, scope ,ammo also made sure the chambers are indentical in diameter and headspace as well.i wanted this to be extremely free of outside varibles .but have tottally different brands of barrels to insure there is a difference barrel wise,mainly to see if they can do the same thing and to see just how universal this really is. the weak middle is a broughton 1.250 dia. for 3.25 out from the front of the lug,then sporter tapers down to .900 then is straight for 16 inches and then sporter tapers back out to 1.25 at 6 inches from the end of the barrel . tim in tx
 
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This is really interesting.
I'd love to see a photo of your rifle.
 
tim in tx said:
keith sir , what i meant was i tested the rifle at local club matches by shooting against really good shooters with ppcs,and 30brs,as well as the 1000yds nationals last year i only have done the integrated tuner on 2 barrels. 1 case design 6 dasher,same stock , action, scope ,ammo also made sure the chambers indentical in diameter and headspace as well.i wanted this to be extremely free of outside varibles .but have tottally different brand of barrels to insure there is a difference barrel wise,mainly to see if they can do the same thing and to see just how universal this really is. the weak middle is a broughton 1.250 dia. for 3.25 out from the front of the lug,then sporter tapers down to .900 then is straight for 16 inches and then sporter tapers back out to 1.25 at 6 inches from the end of the barrel . tim in tx
Click to expand...

Oops, I misunderstood. So your barrel is straight for 3.25", then how long is the taper to 0.9"? Then straight for 16", then how long is the taper back to 1.25"? Then straight for 6". Interesting. This is quite a bit different than Varmint Al's, which tapered down to 0.8", but then immediately back up to 1". Yours has a much longer thin section, and works better than Varmint Al's. His barrel had all the shots exiting near the peak of the upswing, so it didn't help as much as it could have. Your weaker barrel probably has a lower first mode natural frequency, so your shots must be exiting farther down the left of the upswing curve. Excellent.

Cheers,
Keith
 
tim, I just want to say THANK YOU for the work you're doing. We've got a whole bunch of fellows saying stuff like "this board is for people who want the play around" and "nothing really new gets talked about or solved here" and so on and so on. YOU my friend are out there (with Gene and Butch and Jackie and Jim and Charles and Joel and Lou and Don and Don and Don and Varmint Al and those upsidowney guys in Oz and Calfee and manalive the list could just go ON) ..... but anyway THANK YOU for spending time and money building and DOING and for sharing with alla' rest of us.

Good Stuff Tim

fascinating even though I hate tuners ;)

lol

al
 
I'm not a BR shooter but find the prep and work involved very beneficial to learn for my the shooting that I do. I found the weak middle barrel interesting in that I have a 1776 Lancaster pattern flintlock rifle that has a barrel that has very similar dimensions but is 38in long, 50 cal and is a flintlock. The term used for this barrel is Swamped, in long rifle circles.
 
bigngreen said:
... I have a 1776 Lancaster pattern flintlock rifle that has a barrel that has very similar dimensions but is 38in long, 50 cal and is a flintlock. The term used for this barrel is Swamped, in long rifle circles.
Click to expand...

Yes! I have an old friend who builds flintlocks and the high-end ones tend to be swamped. It would be interesting to know whether the gunsmiths back in the 18th century were doing this for accuracy or just to drop weight. Tuned barrels over 200 years ago?

Cheers,
Keith
 
Swamped

mks said:
Yes! I have an old friend who builds flintlocks and the high-end ones tend to be swamped. It would be interesting to know whether the gunsmiths back in the 18th century were doing this for accuracy or just to drop weight. Tuned barrels over 200 years ago?

Cheers,
Keith
Click to expand...

Howdy,
I have always understood that the "Swamped" barrel was done that way for balance while carrying and shooting. The irony is, perhaps it would have made a difference in tune, were it not for the full length stock. Perhaps it still does make a difference in tune. I have not read of the early guys doing it for tune. I know some high end builders, but I did not think to ask them about tune. They said balance. I have wondered if anyone had ever tried a swamped barrel on a modern rifle. I have wondered that for a while actually. Thought I might have been on to something.

I also wondered several years ago, when the big suv's and minivan's were everywhere, why soccer mom's didn't have such a thing as an all wheel drive van. I started getting exited about the idea as I drove away from the auto factory I work at. Thought I might have been on to something. I thought "Haaaaaay, this idea is great! I might actually be able to get off of the assembly line with an idea like this! I could make a bunch of money and have more time to spend with the wife and kids and shoot great rifles and...........................................................

And a Chevy Astro Van with an AWD emblem passed me. AAAAARRRRGH!!!!

Greg
 
thanks mr butch ,i apreciate the words of encouragment.i i must admit i was nervous on how it would be received. and henry sir here is a couple of pics of the rifle and the barrels.this is a rem action,fitted with a kiff bolt ,,jewel trigger ,speedy stock with a nighforce12-42 on top.the weak middle is below the rifle.keith looks like the taper is about 2 inches long.and also thanks mr al for the complements,i hope you and everybody finds the reading worth trying someday.bigreen that is interesting ,makes me kind of waunder if they knew somthing we dont . tim in tx
 

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Tim,
Thanks so much for the picture. Man, I don't think I would have the courage to take a new barrel and turn it down that thin, but you've sure got it working! Did you turn it down in steps, or go right to the contour in the picture?

Cheers,
Keith
 
hey keith,well if i did it in my lathe it would have a chatter marks in 3 areas[harmonic resonance] and probably stress too .best to leave that to the barrel guy.i called a good friend tim north of broughton barrels ,i described what i wanted a really whippy barrel in the middle ,and said he knows just the right taper for my task at hand he can do it as a custom taper .so i went with his suggestion which was pretty much on line with what i was thinking when i got the barrel it was just exactly what i wanted and a jewel inside the bore as broughtons always are. tim in tx
 
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Thanks for the photos.

So you tune by chopping the barrel and then leave it alone?
 
yes sir ,pretty much.i do make adjustments of bullet depth periodicly to keep my velocites level which are dependent on the rate of throat erosion at the time but that is it .the bad part is if i drop one out of the group now i cannot blame the gun,that screwup would be all me.so i have prayed to the wind gods just in case. tim in tx
 
Most Interesting

It was a pleasure meeting and shooting in the tunnel with Tim Sellers a.k.a., "Tim In Texas."

Tim is a native Texan from Ft. Worth and like myself, speaks with no accent whatsoever. :eek: Imagine that! :p

Seriously, Tim and I had a great time comparing notes and experimenting with his 1000 yard rifle. He has a keen understanding of barrel vibration, tuners and beyond-the-muzzle devices. One thing that became clear to me during our work together is that 1000 yard shooting and tuning is somewhat different than short range group shooting in that in long range shooting, you cannot see your bullet holes. :eek:

In group shooting at 100 and 200 yards, we can use the sighter and usually see the bullet holes clearly, which tells us exactly what to do with the tuner. You don't have that luxury in long range shooting.

Tim, I hope you will continue sharing your knowledge with us and come to the tunnel again soon. :)

Best regards

Gene Beggs
 
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