Info on Lilja SS barrel (for .22)

I

imagefinder

Guest
Greetings!

Would you 'accuracy' experts:) kindly give me some info on a Lilja .22 barrel?
Here's the scoop:
I'm not a Benchrest Shooter, officially, but am more a prone, rimfire shooter. I have opportunity to purchase a used (mint condition, supposedly) .22 Anschutz 54 prone rifle with a custom, SS Lilja .22 barrel.

Question: without seeing or shooting the barrel, of course, what's your opinion on the accuracy of the Lilja .22 barrel, and how does it compare to the usual high quality Anschutz barrel?

I need to shoot around 1/2" to 3/4" at 100 yards. Assuming this barrel to be in excellent shape, do you think I can expect that accuracy?

In short, I guess I'm asking how, in general, the Lilja .22 compares, in general, to the Anschutz barrel.

Fortunately, I can send the gun back to the seller if it doesn't perform as expected.

Many thanks for any seasoned advice I know can be forthcoming from Bench Rest shooters--- the most 'accurate' of us all! :)

John
 
Lilja barrels

For what its worth.

Lilja barrels have won many matches and hold many rimfire records. They are every bit as good or better than the best Annie barrels.

That said: they are like other barrels from other manufacturers. Some shoot some don't. You may get a barn burner and probably will. The odds are in your favor.

But you also said you need to shoot 1/2 to 3/4 inch at 100 yards. If you mean you need this kind of accuracy occasionally, OK, you might get it. If you expect it most of the time, no way!

Conditions (wind) effect those little slow moving 40 gr. bullets way too much for that kind of accuracy.

Some may come back with " I can shoot 1/2 " at 100 yards all day long with my XYZ rifle." Maybe they can, but I can't!
 
If it's

a good barrel, it will then be up to the shooter to do his part. Tony must not be a group shooter, Lilja makes some very fine barrels.
 
Lilja Barrels

John,

I hope you got the info you needed. The Lilja barrel should work out fine. Expect better results than the factory annie.

Don,

Just wait until Bill gets the new Broughton barrel on my sporter. Hopefully it will shoot like yours, but if it don't, you did say I can use yours for the rest of the year didn't you?

Fiddler,

You are right. I don't shoot groups I spray them. This past weekend I couldn't get two shots to go anywhere near each other. The only exception was when I shot Don's new sporter. That sucker will flat shoot even with me behind it!;)
 
Don Stith: I am glade to hear you have such a good shooting sporter. Care to say what it is and what kind of barrel you got on it . Hope to see your name on the top of the scores. Your friend Eric G. garrisone.
 
You want may to find out what the twist rate is - I had a Lilja that was a tightbore 1-19 twist and it reguarly shot 1/2" or better out to 75 yds or so but at 100 yds the slow twist rate was letting the bullet destabilize and groups opened up dramatically (2 to 3 inches and totally unpredictable).

It was ordered as a 1-17 twist but when it arrived it was a 1-19. It took me a bit to figure out why it was shooting so great at short range and so badly at longer range. I could tighten groups at long range by using higher velocity ammo but still not enough to make it a 100 yard competitive rifle.
 
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reality check....

imagefinder said:
I need to shoot around 1/2" to 3/4" at 100 yards. Assuming this barrel to be in excellent shape, do you think I can expect that accuracy?
John
Click to expand...

Uhhhhhh......NO.

To be brutally honest, asking for .5 to .75" groups at 100yds is pretty much a pipe dream. Can you OCCASIONALLY get a .75" group? Yes. But not CONSISTENTLY enought to make the assumption that in testing a rifle that one can achieve the magic combintation of ammunition, rifle, conditions (wind/mirage/light/humidity/temperature) and shooter performance to make this happen.

This performance level will be even more challenging if you test the rifle from the prone position and not off of the bench, where it WILL shoot differently than off of the shoulder.

With that said, Lilja makes a good barrel...just stay away from the 1:17" and slower twist rates. In addition, what matters just as much as the quality of the barrel is WHO installed the barrel and did the chambering / crowning / bedding, etc.

You can always get someone to borescope it for you and do a visual on the crown for any glaring issues. Then run a wet patch thru the bore to get a "feel" for if there are any tight/loose areas that you may feel uncomfortable about.

Can one compare a stock Anschutz barrel to a custom SS Lilja? Sure. I'd easily state that the Lilja would most likely be better 95% of the time - but every once in awhile some of the select Anschtuz barreled actions turn out to be extremely accurate. (Hence, there are no absolutes here.....)

Based upon your post, you can get this rifle and give it a trial run.....you really have little or nothing to lose if you are really interested. Furthermore, you can get a feal for the true "fit" of the rifle, unless you already have a prone rifle in an identical stock. For prone and 3-position, the fit of the equipment (specifically the stock) is just as important as accuracy of the rifle.

Ask alot of questions to the seller about the rifle. If they are honest (as are 98% of shooters out there are....), they will provide you answers.
 
Thank you, fellow shooters.

A sincere thanks to all you who gave advice on the Lilja vs. Annie barrels. The preponderance agrees that 'probably' the Lilja is the better of the two, all things and probability factors considered.

Yes, 1/2" -3/4" is snug, for sure at 100 yards. In the 'real world', agreed, it's not likely at 100yds, either off bench or shoulder. Maybe 3/4" to 1.5" is more reasonable? Yes, wind, barrel twist, shooter and a myriad of other variables all contribute to the ultimate group diameter, don't they.

One thing stood out to me (1813Benny, I think)--- stock fit:
Hey guys--- I'm out here to get into smallbore prone. That said, do any of you think it more wise to get the 2013 Annie (aluminum frame), with its multitude of ergonomic adjustments, than the older, prone Anschutz wooden stock? The rifle I'm considering w/ the Lilja barrel has a prone-type stock w/ adjustable comb, latest 54 action, and of course, the Lijla barrel. But a new2013Annie has that completely customizable 'stock' (I guess we can call it that:)) which just might make the difference, as 1813Benny indicates, between 'ok' shots and shot made from a really comfortable, non-straining fit.

Whaddya think? If you were going for serious prone shooting, which might you select, money not being the determinant (2013 is about $2800: customized Annie w/ Lilja is $1800).

Again, many thanks to all: I hope this message is to all of the respondents, not just one. (This is my first post and visit to the Benchrest forum; I take it many of you guys do a lot more shooting than just Benchrest--- great!)

John (imagefinder)
 
imagefinder said:
Whaddya think? If you were going for serious prone shooting, which might you select, money not being the determinant (2013 is about $2800: customized Annie w/ Lilja is $1800).

John (imagefinder)
Click to expand...

John,
Many of the best of the best 22 RF prone shooters use a wood stock. There is a theory that wood actually helps dampen vibration improving accuracy.

I've been shooting and competing since college, but only became serious about outdoor prone last year. Perfecting the setup of my wood 1913 occurred over several years of 3P shooting. Two weeks ago I picked up a 1913/2213 to give the AL stock a try. Using a Noptel 2 hours a night for six days I was able to configure it to where it "felt" tighter/better than the wood and the wobble area was similar. My results for my first trip to the range last weekend were equal to the wood stock, but there was a nasty fishtailing wind at 5 o'clock so who really knows. Last night I dry fired my personal best on the Noptel with the AL.

As much as I love wood grain, if I was starting out I would go with the 1913/2213. I would not buy the 2013 unless you plan on swapping barrels since it requires more tuning and the receiver may not be as stiff (which probably only matters if you shoot BR).

If you are new to prone shooting, find a friend who can coach. Much like golf, starting out with bad habits can cost you years to correct. Where about do you live?

As we say, it is the archer not the arrow. Buy the best rifle/ammo you can afford today and get in the game.

Mark
 
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Say, this may sound ignorant of me - it is - but how the heck do you dry fire your best score ever? I mean, how does anyone score dry firing? Perhaps the answer lies in the word Noptel. What is that?
 
BrentD said:
Say, this may sound ignorant of me - it is - but how the heck do you dry fire your best score ever? I mean, how does anyone score dry firing? Perhaps the answer lies in the word Noptel. What is that?
Click to expand...

Good guess. A Noptel is a training system using a reflector on a target to measure your hold, shot, and follow through. Client software on a computer keeps score and allows you to replay each shot. The only bad thing is you can't blame poor shots on ammo or wind. :D

Mark
 
rifle stock

John
First - Check your in box...sent you a pm.

If you don't care about how much money you spend, either the 1913, the 2013 or the 1911 prone rifle w/ the Lilja barrel will all do fine.

Yes, the 19/2013 has more adjustments and can be more customized to accomodate the different physical attibutes of a shooter, but that much adjustment can also be a detriment to a new shooter. In some cases, it is downright overwhelming if you do not have direct access to a master class shooter that can assist w/ the set up.

If you have a Noptel or other electronic training device, that will certainly help get the basic adjustments in line for comfort and some of the wobble, but nothing is better than actual trigger time.

Another item to consider is that the 19/2013 has the full hook buttplate rather than a simple prone style. The hook can be removed and the configuration of the buttplate altered to better suit prone, but it is part of the $3100 package. Food for thought, as some shooters, no matter how hard they try, don't have the patience to adapt the hook buttplate properly to take full advantage of it for prone.

Now, in the wood versus aluminum debate, it is true that wood has a better capability to naturally dampen vibration, but it should not be the deciding factor. There are as many aluminum stocked rifles shooting great scores as are wooden ones.

As for the 20xx versus the 19xx series actions, they both have advantages and disadvantages. The 19xx are easier to glass bed and tend to be less difficult to find the right torque settings for the action. In contrast, the 20xx is a more robust action that allows for easier mounting of a scope and it also allows you to easily switch barrels w/o a gunsmith in just a few minutes.

Either way, for prone either one is certainly capable of performing at a level to win as long as you invest a little time up front in setting the rifle up properly - both to you via the stock and the action to the stock/ammunition.

If you really want to go Full Monty, check out the Bleiker.....should only be about $8,000 USD (depending on how the markets closed today).

Another aluminum stock to look at is the Grunig Elmiger - you can't express the craftsmanship and quality of this piece with words until you pick one up.....and you can shoot either smallbore or highpower with the same stock. The Anschutz ones are a version of powder casting, and at one time they did have a history of breaking due to voids. I have not seen a broken one lately, but it is something to consider.

On top of all of this, depending on your physical size, the 19/2012 sport rifles are a really great compromise in weight and stock size. It's essentially a 2013 that is slimmed down in size and weight for females to shoot, however quite a few guys find that it has a great feel and balance.
 
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