I'd like to get a better set of dies

G

gundogblue

Guest
Hi Guys,
A month or so ago I posted here,"New rifle is driving me crazy", and you guys got me straightened out real good. Now Im useing the Hornaday OALG, and bullet comparator, and seating my bullets 0.003 off the lands, as per the great advice I got from some of the guys on this sight. But now I figure why stop there, Im currently useing Lee .223 RGB dies, but Im still getting variations in my bullet seating depth. Im thinking a good set of match/precision dies might help with that, from what I've been reading it seems that Forster gives a lot of bang for the buck, I've been looking at the Forster Ultimate micrometer seating die, they also have a similar seating die just with-out the micrometer, is one as good as the other or is it best to pay the extra dollars and get the one with the micrometer? Also Im thinking the sizer die is just as important in the grand sceem of things, is this true? But I don't understand about useing different size bushing when re-sizing, I've always just used a regular re-sizing die. Im not new to reloading but now I'd like to take it to the next level, so any advice will be appriciated, and taken quite seriously, as you guys really helped me get that new savage rifle of mine shooting extremly well.
Thanks,
Paul
 
I use Redding Competition bushing dies with a Forster Co-Ax press and found my run outs to be greatly improved.
 
Paul, there's one rule I try not to violate, Don't go cheap on your tools. Whenever I've gone cheap I've come to regret it. Another rule that's a corollary to that is, buy more capacity than you need now. It may cost a little more now but it'll cost a lot more when you try to add it later.
 
Do you have a bullet comparator (ogive tool) to measure your loaded rounds? If not, stop.....and get one. Measuring to bullet tip is a surefire way of thinking you have a problem when you may not.

Hovis
 
One reason that you may not measure the same length on each round is that your base-ogive measuring device contacts the bullet in a different place than does the seating die. With bullets slightly varying in nose shape, even if the seating is exactly consistent, the base-ogive measurement will vary. In an ideal world, the seater and the measurement tool would contact the bullet in the same place that the lands in the barrel do. But if seaters were made like this, bullets would stick in them just like they do in barrels if your seating length is too long. So seaters contact the bullets closer to the tip so that they don't stick. The best we can do is to adjust the contact point to be as low on the bullet as possible without causing sticking. And make the contact points the same on the seater and measurement tool.

By all means, get a bushing sizer die so that you work the brass less. Although if you are not turning the necks to a consistent thickness, it could be argued that a sizer ball results in more consistent neck ID than a bushing. So either turn the necks, or keep using the ball.

Hope this helps,
Keith
 
OK, this post is in no way a reflection of anyone else's, nor is it a disagreement with anyone else. This post is aimed ONLY at the OP and is MY OPINION!


gundogblue it doesn't matter a whit which brand nor whose one-off hand-made creation you buy as long as it's hardened and as long as it fits YOUR CHAMBER.

All mass-produced chambers are produced "within tolerance" as are all mass-produced reloading dies. IME When someone finds that "XX" die works better with their "XXX" brand rifle it's just because they lucked into a better fit, the tolerance-stack gods were smiling on them that day.

I know the guy who produces the die blanks, the die reamers and the chambering reamers for some of the major mfgrs.....and his QC is top notch. But, most die blanks exhibit runout and 99% of them are reamed by throwing the die at a collet setup and JAMMING the reamer in under coolant pressure. And most barrels are chambered in ways that simply CANNOT under any circumstance produce two similar chambers in a row.

So good fit becomes a matter of blind luck.

To actually achieve the fit required for you to load cases over and over and to make perfectly concentric rounds requires forethought and money. You absolutely must achieve a shake-hand fit for the new die to your particular chamber.

If I told you a more expensive die made straighter ammo, I would be lying.

This does NOT imply that anyone else is telling you falsehoods, it just means that I've been where you are and the advice did not work for me. And I require straight ammunition for dozens of rifles. I build and reload for rifles which will interchange loads and die settings across the globe. This interchangeability is the result of careful planning, not luck. IF there was a brand of factory die which fit a brand of factory rifle or a certain chambering I'd be very interested to find out HOW this was accomplished!


opinionby




al
 
OK so what Im taking away from this is loading perfect, consistant rounds is an exact science thats not perfect;) I guess the best I can do is follow the basics very carfully, take the most accurate measurments my equipment will allow, use the best equipment I can afford, and for my .223 Savage keep the bullet 0.003 off the lands, thats where she seems to like it best. I guess in the end the old adage is still true,"its the man behind the trigger," But I do know that using the Hornaday OALG, and bullet comparator did wounders for my rifle, when I first got her I was doing well to get 5 shot 1 inch groups@100yrds, after I finally found the bullet-powder combo that she liked, and backed the bullet 0.003 off the lands, she now shoots "most" 5 shot groups between 0.48, and 0.65 inch. But I still get flyers, thats why I thought I could do more with my reloaded ammo. But I also realize that maybe some of those flyers are my fault!! When I first measured the chamber length useing a Nosler 69gr competion bullet the length to the lands at the ogive was 1.944, backing it 0.003 off the lands is 1.941, but when I seat the bullets theyre all not exactally 1.941, they can very as much as plus or minus 0.002 inches, thats why I figured a better set of dies would help solve the problem.
Paul
 
Also, Make sure your bullet tips are not hitting the bottom of the seater stem. Either way, If you take the seater stem out and have someone match it to a bullet, your variance with go away for the most part. Or just send a dummy round to wilson and they will fit you a die and stem (you will have to use an arbor press) at their regular price. Works wonders.


Hovis
 
Hmmmmm,

.48 to .65 groups? Occasional fliers? How many wind flags are you using?

Be careful, it sounds like you are dangerously close to the point at which BENCHREST takes over your life!:eek: It will keep your credit card red hot, put you and the UPS driver on a first name basis, your sleep patterns will get out of sync and your sex life will, uh,,, well, never mind. :p

Yes, benchrest is addictive but what the heck; it's fun and the people you meet are among the finest in the world. :)

Get to know the serious benchrest competitors in your area. If there are none, drive to where they live. You can always tell those who know what they're talking about. They place well in the matches and have been at it for years.

Extreme rifle accuracy is one of the most fascinating studies I have ever undertaken. Hope you enjoy your journey.

Have fun. :D

Sincerely,

Gene Beggs
 
gundogblue said:
OK so what Im taking away from this is loading perfect, consistant rounds is an exact science thats not perfect;) I guess the best I can do is follow the basics very carfully, take the most accurate measurments my equipment will allow, use the best equipment I can afford, and for my .223 Savage keep the bullet 0.003 off the lands, thats where she seems to like it best. I guess in the end the old adage is still true,"its the man behind the trigger," But I do know that using the Hornaday OALG, and bullet comparator did wounders for my rifle, when I first got her I was doing well to get 5 shot 1 inch groups@100yrds, after I finally found the bullet-powder combo that she liked, and backed the bullet 0.003 off the lands, she now shoots "most" 5 shot groups between 0.48, and 0.65 inch. But I still get flyers, thats why I thought I could do more with my reloaded ammo. But I also realize that maybe some of those flyers are my fault!! When I first measured the chamber length useing a Nosler 69gr competion bullet the length to the lands at the ogive was 1.944, backing it 0.003 off the lands is 1.941, but when I seat the bullets theyre all not exactally 1.941, they can very as much as plus or minus 0.002 inches, thats why I figured a better set of dies would help solve the problem.
Paul
Click to expand...


No it's not "the men behind the trigger" nor is it "the indian not the arrow" nor is it "if I do my part..."

YOU can shoot little tiny weeny holes if your gun shoots. But you missed my point entirely, IT IS an exact science, ain't no luck involved in accuracy.

Tons of luck in competition, very little in accuracy.

You do whatever you want, I didn't expect you to actually lissen but I'll predict right now that buying a set of Forster or Redding or whatever brand you think is "better" is just another blind shot in the dark. I also predict that if it DOES work, you'll be another guy telling the world that "Redding dies make straighter ammo than cheapo RCBS"

al
 
alinwa,
I certainly did'nt mean to offend you, if I did please except my appology.
Paul
 
al,
What you've said, as well as everyone else has been a big help, I read , and re-read everything in this thread, and try to incorporate it as best I can while at the range. And it's made a big difference, Im learning the finer points of precision reloading, far beyond the basics thanks in large part to the imput from the guys on this sight. It seems my biggest obstacle is myself, and thats what I meant by the man behind the trigger. After a lifetime of shooting I've developed a some bad habits Im trying to overcome, like proper breathing, and trigger control, you would'nt beleave the amount of very good groups I've ruined by "pulling" the last shot. I went to the range yesterday and for me it was a good day, I shot four, five shot groups @ 100yrds, after measuring the groups, and averaging them it came to 0.522. Now Im under no liiusions, those groups will never win any prizes as there's many guys, alot of them on this sight that would be disappointed with that results, but for someone like me, it was a good day, but there's lots of room for improvement, I just gotta keep plugging away at it.
Paul
 
Just keep on goin and having fun youre doing great! Just dont get frustrated and let that get in your way of having fun.
 
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