IBS Benchrest Surveys (LONG)

[Lynn]

Lnn & who Ever

4 Mesh is right after or matchs you can shoot all you want, test loads have a fun match for money what ever your little heart desires. We have trier fun shoots and 600 yard after a match. But then the other problem comes up and its the BIGGEST OF ALL. Getting people to help. Everyone wants to shoot but no one wants to help. That is your problem not shooting more.

Joe Salt

Joe
I replied to your post earlier but it either never showed up or it got pulled?
On shooting more targets nobody wants to hold a fun match after the original match and I think you are missing the point.You set up once and shoot 4 lightgun targets then 4 heavygun targets.If I had to set up four seperate times I wouldn't want to shoot with you guys either.
Lynn

 

[Lynn]

Are you suggesting that each match become a 4 target agg? If so, as Charles explained with the ranges that would not be able to get more dates, how would they shoot that much, benches available or not? Quantico has 50 benches available to shoot on, but, cannot do that many pit changes, nor can they hire that many pit pullers.


4Mesh
If Quantico has 50 benches why can't they shoot 4 lightgun targets then 4 heavygun targets then swap out relays? To shoot 100 shooters you would have 1 pit change and the shooters would do there own pit duty.At 7:30 AM 50 shooters would go to the pits and each hang up one target.They would put labels on the other seven targets load up there staple guns and grab a few spotter disks.The other 50 shooters would be on the firing line setting up there lightgun rests and making sure they are ready to go hot at 8:01 AM.They shoot 4 lightgun targets in 45 minutes then swap out for there heavyguns which takes another 45 minutes for four targets.
The line goes cold at around 10:00 AM and the pits swaps with the guys on the line and it repeats itself.By noon time you have 100 shooters done for the day each shooting 8 targets.
Waterboy

 

[Charles E]

Look it. A match is about competition. Yes, other things go on at a match, and I enjoy shooting the breeze as much as the next guy, as long as your fellow breeze shooters aren't idiots.

Maybe IBS should start a Class III format. You all shoot 5 cases of ammunition at full auto. The guy with the highest round count on paper wins.

Backing away from that, the aggregate format has its weaknesses, just like any format. Determining the "best shooter" is sort of like determining Standard Deviation. How many rounds does it take to get significant SD numbers? The 100 scored rounds of a Point-blank match, spread over two days, morning to night, comes pretty close. But if you happened to catch that lousy relay, good SD numbers or not, you're toast. And we're not about statistics, we'd like to minimize that luck factor.

A single group could be luck. But that *is* the basis of our sport -- who can shot the smallest group. One good way to make the single group more predictive is to have more shots. A 10-shot group is more than twice as hard as a 5-shot group. A 20-shot group would really start to be indicative.

It wouldn't take much more time. Yeah, things would get hot. Heat's part of the game now.

Another format would be what I call the Olympic format. 10 benches, the top two or three in each of group and score advance to semi-finals. Variations: You don't advance in only what you placed in -- you're shooting for both group and score all the way through. That would take more time than the current format, but less than four full aggs. Problem -- pit crew. When they loose, some go home, even if you're counting on them.

There are ways to get more shooting in and stay true to the idea of a match. But some old thinking might have to be abandoned, and those that don't like change would howl. A lifetime of experience says there are always more of them than of those who'll try new ideas.

 

[4Mesh]

Lynn,
First, when quoting someone. You have to have a begining and ending tag (UBB code) for a quote to work. I see you've figured out how to Bold, italicize or underline. At the RIGHT side of the button bar is the little quote symbol. Hilite stuff and click that for the tags. They are: [] with QUOTE inside or, QUOTE=LYNN if I wish it to say quoting Lynn. Then, [] with /QUOTE inside as the ending tag. Without both, it is NOT a quote. The slash is what denotes ending. Of course I can't show those here because the

 tag does not work here (usually for showing examples of UBB code in a post without having it parsed).  It would make reading your posts SOoooo much easier. 

To Quantico.  If you remember a recent thread where I mentioned restrictions on shooting due to rules of the host range, well, that's what comes into play here.  The folks who run the matches at Quantico are pretty good with figuring out what they can and cannot do.  At the matches I have attended there for example, certain things will happen with scoring because there are difficulties in making pit changes.  This is NOT the only range on which shooting is going on.  There, remember, this is a Marine base.  The range used for civilian 1K matches is also used for field exercises.  There's only a tree line dividing that range from the adjacent ranges that might be used for lord knows what at any given time.  I've been there and sat waiting while the range was being used for exercises and simply waited till the cadets moved off the range before anyone could begin to set up benches or anything.  It comes down to cooperation with the Marines and the base commanders.  There's nothing difficult about it, but, those limitations in making pit changes alone are costly in time.  See, they can't change the pits if ANY range is hot.  This is sometimes a long affair, perhaps the entire day.  So, you go in one time with hired pullers, and that's it.  They stay.  Just getting targets out is time consuming.  

Most of the restrictions are safety based.  They are imposed because the Marines are responsible for everyone on the ranges.  To an outsider, they may sound a bit overkill but they are there for a reason and attempting to circumvent them is not very wise.  You simply follow the rules.  If the marines say you can shoot but you have to stand on one leg, you stand on one leg.  Yes sir. Thank you sir. 

It also may be possible that the VA club "Could" run agg matches as a regular practice.  I don't know all the reasons they have for keeping the traditional format, but I'd bet they are good ones.

 

[Lynn]

4Mesh
You are thinking I am smarter than the average cat and I am not.To quote you I hit the reply with quote button then go all the way to the bottom of your post and hit backspace to erase everything I don't want to see again.The rest stays as is with or without all the funny little symbols.

If you've read a post of mine done correctly my secretary was probaly looking over my shoulder going crazy and simply took over the keyboard.
Have you read any posts by Alinwa?

Again out here our ranges are seperated and we can drive to the pits at will.I have always suspected most of the reasoning for how you guys hold your matches was due to limitations placed on you by the various ranges.
I do think shooting one 5 shot target is more luck than skill and a whole year of lightgun shooting should come down to more than a single MTM box of ammo.50 shots doesn't seem like a years worth of shooting to myself but if you don't have the ranges you make the best of what you have.

On the good side of things a lightgun barrel in 6BR should last you 20 years.
Waterboy

 

[Joe Salt]

Lynn I'm not missing the point, I think you are. Why not start your own range and see how much work goes into it. The more targets the more work, and [weather permiting] you may not get them all in, Kind of like you did in Sacramento. Didn't work out so well did it? Besides if I was there to just pull the trigger, I wouldn't have any fun with my friends would I. That to me means more than just shooting. And that is the reason I have been shooting this Game for 38 years, most don't stay with it more than five. So I think I like shooting more than most.

Joe Salt

 

[4Mesh]

Lynn, a quote requires 2 tags. One at the begining, one at the end. The one at the end needs a slash / before the word quote. If you erase the end of the message, just don't erase the part that has the closing tag.

The difficulty with 1000 yard br as opposed to short range is the availability of properties on which to do it. The guys who live near Quantico could easily go shoot short range BR cause there's ranges with 100/200 yard setups. That's not what they want to do.

The point of this thread and it's sisters in other forums was to help get a grasp on the feelings of shooters as to why it is difficult to get shooters. The answers are really pretty simple.

Back in the old days, there was just less types of shooting going on. 30 years ago, did you have so many choices as to competitive disciplines? No. Then, regularly, ranges get closed down because suburbia keeps closing in on them. Opinions of shooters vary so much, and they all want things so different with no interest in accepting things the way they are, and that's an issue. The range issues discussed above come in. And, when it is all said and done, there is no one answer, and almost none of the problems are common to a majority of ranges, or even a majority of disciplines. Afaic, each range needs to address the issues they have in their own way. What works for you won't work for someone else, and vice versa.

Then as Joe and I both pointed out many times in the past, nobody wants to do the work. And without that work, let's face it, it's not as much fun. For anyone who wants to dispute that fact, just think of shooting matches with no scoring. Hmmm.. Not so interesting eh.

There should have been a separate poll for people who have run matches. I bet those results would have differed from the majorities in these polls.

 

[Lynn]

4Mesh
The purpose of the poll was to ask shooters what they thought and to ask non-shooters the same thing.According to the threads starter the shooters overwhhelmingly want to shoot more rounds downrange.
It might not be possible using your current format or due to range issues but that wasn't the question was it.Shooters want to shoot and that is exactly what the poll pointed out.
He didn't get into other specifics on why new shooters won't shoot and I can answer that from my own personal experience but I'd be beating that same dead cat again.You might remember the Hawks Ridge incident nobody wanted to post about but everybody heard about?


Joe
I know how much work is involved and we arleady have a great range out here that can handle multiple targets at each match.Our problems out here are not shooter related they are sanctioning body related and our new match director just doesn't have what it takes to solve that problem.
We also have never had a weather problem out here.We had a problem wth the top dogs refusing to follow there own rules and now they are refusing to fix or solve that problem.
You simply can't cover everything up and expect it to solve itself.If they had any balls at all they would admit the error was there fault not the shooters and they would finalise the match.There inability/unwillingness to remedy there own mistake is making them the laughing stock of the shooting sports and rightly so.
Hopefully the shooters will remember all of this when it comes time to vote for our elected officials.
I would like Sacramento 600/1000 yard to go to the IBS format and let the 100,200 yard shooters stay were they are.We could still shoot as many targets as we want and our leadership could hopefully solve a minor problem in under 2 months time.
Waterboy

 

[trouble]

I shoot a warm up relay and 5 record relays in score shooting and it costs 15.00 at most IBS shoots I atternd. One rifle, one set of bags . The costs of a lot of 1000 yd rest set up cost more than the rifle I shoot in score shooting. I shoot 34 gr of powder and the bullets are cheaper so I can shoot 100 for the amount I could shoot 50 custom lr 30 cal bullets and 50 to 80 gr of powder some of you shoot in 1000 yd. Cases the same way. My BAT sv action cost 925.00. A lot of big 1000 yd actions cost half again as much. I was just trying to suggest ways to get more people in the sport but if some of you want to keep your heads in the sand or where ever else go right ahead. I'm through trying to help. Enough said

 

[4Mesh]

Trouble,
Your comparisons of the two are not fair. You are comparing what I would consider normal priced stuff in any game, to the most expensive 1K equipment. Take the action numbers for example. Any action you could use in short range could easily be used (and are often) in 1K. If you wanted to spend a ton on an action for a big magnum, yes, you can spend to the moon. But you do not have to. There are many customs out there for less than the $900 you mention that will work just fine for 1K use in a mag cartridge. I use the same rest for everything, so, I'm not a good example there. Again, if you want to spend a fortune on a rest, that's your choice. I used the same scopes in both 1K and 1M. So, if you'd like to say that the "Perception" is that 1K is more money, that I'll buy.

Then, your other example talks about $/shot, but, again, it's not cheaper, it's just more shots. Now, I already said if that's what you want, by all means do the more shooting thing. But call it what it is. And, Fyi, there are people shooting 30BR's in short range who are sending MORE bullet downrange than the guys in 1K, MORE of them, and doing it with more powder.

All I'm saying is, let's be fair. I understand what things you call shortcomings of 1K vs other shooting. But, either way can be very budget conscious if the shooter wants it to be. And, believe me you can be competitive without all the spending some people seem to think is needed. But, it does take a little more work.

Lynn...

4Mesh
The purpose of the poll was to ask shooters what they thought and to ask non-shooters the same thing.According to the threads starter the shooters overwhhelmingly want to shoot more rounds downrange.

Where are these people?

Geez guy, I'm sitting here shrug'n my shoulders... Whoooaaa... Just because folks checked a box on a poll doesn't mean that if they were actually presented with the opportunity they would jump on it. I gave an example above where this has been demonstrated already. Look, I'll buy an agg format for 600 yard and shorter, but only because the shooting formats preclude the use of pits and it can be done faster, and more efficiently. You've shot both, I don't think I need to sit here and tell you how much difference there is in time for each. Those disciplines require less people.

The places that shoot agg matches, have lower attendance. OR, they shoot ALL day like at a Nationals or W.O. and at a ridiculous pace. If they don't have low attendance, they can't do agg matches. As they gain in shooters, it now becomes a curse. Most of this stuff is a double edged sword.

We'll just keep beating that dead cat as you say. All I can tell ya is, in my opinion, if there was such a huge majority of shooters who wanted to do more shooting, there would also be more people willing to work at these matches. Well, I think everyone who's ever been around shooting can attest that the second part there isn't true. Therefore, I conclude the first part isn't either.

 

[4Mesh]

I have a great question for you folks from the short range ranks.

How many of you shoot at a club where they shoot group matches in the morning and score in the afternoon?

How many of the shooters get done at the group match and go home?

Would it be safe to say those guys are not interested in more shooting?

And before you answer that they all stay, remember, this has been a topic on this forum forever. And I've seen it myself.