Hunters . . . but not shooters

M

Montana Pete

Guest
Forgive me for bringing this up but I just got together with my old work friend, we talked about deer hunting plans, and I'm again reminded of this man's "quirk" regarding shooting and hunting.

About three years ago I took him to the range to sight in his new rifle. We shot up about 10 rds. of factory ammo, got the rifle roughly sighted in -- give or take an inch or two at 100 yds. -- and at this point, he looked me in the eye and said, "I will never buy another shell for this rifle." At that he packed his stuff up and got ready to go home --with only 10 rds of ammo -- half a box-- remaining.

Where did the guy get this odd idea? Read on . . .

We used to work at a large facility in a rural area, and there were a number of guys -- many of them farm folks -- who would boast that "they had just bought one box of ammo for their rifle, and that's all they needed." You couldn't hardly go into the coffee room or lunch room without hearing this.

If you are wondering what's going on here, it's a form of boasting. The idea is, they get their buck every year with one or two shots, so a box of shells will last a good ten hunting seasons. Maybe they don't count the shells they use to sight in -- one time only, I'm sure -- when they buy the gun. Anyway, I used to hear this a lot. Unfortunately, I think my friend admired -- and wanted to imitate -- some pretty foolish "heroes."

Well, any comments? Sorry if I bored everybody with this.
 
"foolish heroes"

Well, I agree with you and I fight this mindset every day.

I teach Hunter Ed here in Northern Clark County WA which is pure-dee redneck logger/construction worker/hunter/farmer/fundamentalist country and I eternally FIGHT this junk. And we HAVE made a huge difference! We send the kids out with a sure and certain knowledge that they WILL get into arguments with their elders and that "Uncle Joe" WILL pick on what they've learned and that they WILL have to defend their ethics/safety/attitudes/shooting skill..........we've had parents who were setting in on the class WALK OUT in a huff about this exact subject. These parents actually believe that they're "gifted with woods sense and shooting skill"..... it's just born into "real" Americans. They're such mighty hunters that they really don't even have to know how to shoot, they just mosey up to within 3-400 yards (easy poke) and drop the deer with a heart-shot. Now SOMETIMES they'll have to take another shot because "the deer was spooked, by another hunter". I tell 'em REAL Americans don't need no turdy-t'urdy, just sneak up and skewer the buck with a homemade spear.....

"sighting in"
"practicing"
"loading in the rig"
"crossing obstacles"
"fields of fire, shooting zones"

all arguable points to the NCR. (North County Redneck)


I will not go into the woods with 90% of them.


Now the kids that leave the class are a different story! They're all fired up about shooting clays and rolling tires and ranging targets......learning trajectories and energy tables......and SHOOTING, practicing to gain proficiency. But we do have to prepare them for the inevitable Cowboy Logic which abounds in the hunting community.

And which WILL be the death of us if we don't kill it!

I'm glad'ja brung it up.

al
 
You are in........

the company of idiots, unfortunately. And, people like that often believe they don't need to engage in foolishness like "sit'n in", and if they DO, it should be in the company of five or six of their buddies, and one, or two's better, cases of beer, and probably a pint for some REAL "shooters". I've encountered people like that, & can't wait to get away, fast away, far, FAR away the fastest way!! I stay home durin' hunt'n seezin'. I treasure the outdoors so much, I do everything I can to ensure I survive to enjoy it again, the next year......
And, you may think it is idle "boasting" but I assure you, there are those out there who believe that mindset, and actually resent it if you, with only their success in mind, show them, with respect, how they can achieve better results. Like some children in school, where the one who gets good grades is subject to ridicule. Oh, well, on to better things. Good luck!!
 
Although.......

After 15 years, I was still fireforming the 100 cases I bought for my M70 in .270W when I sold it.

I Devcon bedded it when I bought it & loaded up with a now long forgotten load of 785 behind the Hornady 140 boattail. It held going on for ½"+ 5 shot groups & threw the clean cold barrel shot maybe ½" lower at 100 yards when I played with it for a full day at the range, shooting other rifles most of the time. I didn't use three boxes that day, barely getting thru the 4th on 10-12 deer hunts I took it away on & only once used more than two shots in a weekend.

A lot of life can be just waiting......
 
alinwa said:
"foolish heroes"

Well, I agree with you and I fight this mindset every day.

I teach Hunter Ed here in Northern Clark County WA which is pure-dee redneck logger/construction worker/hunter/farmer/fundamentalist country and I eternally FIGHT this junk. And we HAVE made a huge difference! We send the kids out with a sure and certain knowledge that they WILL get into arguments with their elders and that "Uncle Joe" WILL pick on what they've learned and that they WILL have to defend their ethics/safety/attitudes/shooting skill..........we've had parents who were setting in on the class WALK OUT in a huff about this exact subject. These parents actually believe that they're "gifted with woods sense and shooting skill"..... it's just born into "real" Americans. They're such mighty hunters that they really don't even have to know how to shoot, they just mosey up to within 3-400 yards (easy poke) and drop the deer with a heart-shot. Now SOMETIMES they'll have to take another shot because "the deer was spooked, by another hunter". I tell 'em REAL Americans don't need no turdy-t'urdy, just sneak up and skewer the buck with a homemade spear.....

"sighting in"
"practicing"
"loading in the rig"
"crossing obstacles"
"fields of fire, shooting zones"

all arguable points to the NCR. (North County Redneck)


I will not go into the woods with 90% of them.


Now the kids that leave the class are a different story! They're all fired up about shooting clays and rolling tires and ranging targets......learning trajectories and energy tables......and SHOOTING, practicing to gain proficiency. But we do have to prepare them for the inevitable Cowboy Logic which abounds in the hunting community.

And which WILL be the death of us if we don't kill it!

I'm glad'ja brung it up.

al
Click to expand...

Lardy,we have 850 members in our club,as president, i get 50 calls per week and 20-30 emails per week on sighting in a rifle or what ammo to use ect.
I go to the skeet fields to shoot and about 10 hunters will show up and ask for help sighting in their deer rifles,i have to listen to stories about how good his 742 jam-o-matic will shoot,i can hit a dime at 300 yards wid my remchester ammo.
Most don't or never heard of bore sightibng a rifle,they get upset when i tell them they can use the 25 yard rimfire range to get on paper,then go to the centerfire range,they look at the 100 yard target boards and swear it;s 300 yards.
Yes,a lot(80%) buy 2 boxes of factory ammo and say it will last them 5-6 years,but can't shoot a 3 shot group under 5 inches.
But that is life and we try to teach,help and talk to them about reloading,most don't want anything to do with reloading as ammo and a rifle is like a spliting wedge and a hammer to them just a tool to use and get the job done and wait til next year.
We started a youth program,i have seen 7 and 8 year old boys and a few girls sit at the bench and look as good as a 60 year old Benchrest shooter,because most will listen and are more than interested in what a rifle does and ammmo besides just pulling the trigger.
Oh well,it is a Movie to watch the week before deer season just to sit and watch hunters wanabees trying to zero rifles and muzzle loaders and that a whole story by it's self.
 
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Hunters

At the old Lake Houston Gun Club, I used to help hunters sight in Rifles on a regular basis. You would be surprised how many Gun Owners have no clue what so ever of the concept.

I guess I am the opposite of what you described. I am a shooter, I go through thousands of rounds a year. But, I have not been hunting in 25 years...........jackie
 
Well my brother bought a 270 and went to the range and they loaded up a few rounds for him from their data base. It shot great. That was 11 yrs ago. He still has a few loaded cartridges as he hasn't missed. He is not a shooter, he goes for the experience. Fortunately he has a good rifle and a good load and a good scope. Tom doesn't know any better and doesn't brag about this, just everything else.
Butch
 
Gentlemen,

I am familiar of the type you talk about...buy an new gun and two boxes of shells...last them a lifetime. If they don't want to shoot...well, they don't know how much fun their missing. Doesn't keep me awake at night. But...this same mindset often buy .25-460's so they can "reach out and zap them at 600 yards". THAT drives me to strong drink (Tullamore Dew usually). The thought of some yahoo blazing away and wounding an elk some 600 yards distant really bothers me. The critter deserves far better than that. Don't be a lazy bastard...get closer. You see this mentality in the mainstream gun mags, too. How many times have you read "I was pinned down by the deer, elk, whatever at 423 yards and could not get any closer". My a$$! I hunt exclusively with a recurve bow, and I have never spotted an animal I couldn't get closer to. When I can't get any closer, I'm usually 15-30 yards away. Ya it's hard, and it can take a couple hours, but it is fun! The satisfaction I get from getting in the wheelhouse of a deer without him knowing it is far more than I would get from blasting one from some ungodly distance with a modern day ballistic marvel. Alas, all of the above will probably never change...only get worse. We are in the age of instant gratification...why do it the hard way when you can do it the easy way. We, as a whole, are becoming lazy, impatient, uninspired, unappreciative slugs.

I maintain that this group is neither shooters or hunters. I don't know what to label them.

Justin
 
"hunter safety"

Most of the "once-a-year deer hunters" are the most dangerous people I've ever been around, when they have a firearm in their hands. They do not have a clue regarding even the basics of safe gun handling. I could relate dozens of first-hand experiences, but why bother: we've all seen it. This is the time of the year (hunting season) when I avoid going to the ranges at the 3 clubs where I am a member, or I'll plan my time there, when the "others" are not likely to be present. In the past, I've tried to be friendly & diplomatic/ non-confrontational, and the majority of times "know-it-all" responds in a argumenative fashion-- so I don't bother anymore.
 
Keep in mind Justin, there are some here and at long range hunting forums who think 'hunting' is shooting across a valley with an unlimited BR gun off a bench or tripod. Some of these folks assume they'll need to walk shots into game, and so team up with a spotter and shoot & shoot until hitting their mark. But of course, they are just target shooting -at animals.

They shoot alot more than normal hunters, who stalk prey until they can drop them with single shots. They shoot alot preparing because they shoot so far at living 'targets'. Braggin rights? I don't know, makes no sense at all.

My father has an old(but nice) Rem in 243 that shoots good enough at 200-300yds. He pulls it out of the cabinet once a year, gets his buck and a doe, a cleaning, and back in the cabinet.
I would be surprised if he used more than 4 boxes in the past 30yrs.
I shoot more in a month than he has in a lifetime, because I enjoy shooting. But then, I don't pretend to be 'hunting' with this activity. Nor can I find fault in those who are real hunters.
 
Good grief...

...they must not like to kill or eat. What are they doing, shooting one deer every 2-3 years??

One box of ammo?? I used my .280AI fo far this season to take care of 2 coyotes (missed two others running) & several pigs. Still haven't taken a deer but what fun is it to go hunting and not pull the trigger??

pf
<><
 
Paul,
My Brother is like Mikecr's Dad. He shoots his deer or hog, gives the meat to one of my employees and enjoys the experience. He is the guy that you want around the campfire. Knows every joke and works hard around camp. You do not have to shoot a couple 1000 rounds a year to be able to hunt and kill an animal. I know of BR shooters that choke when hunting and miss.
Butch
 
Thanks for all the replies to the thread. I'm glad to see some attention to some of these "myths" because they irritate me.

In fairness, it can be possible to practice with a rifle almost not at all and still be a good, safe hunter. Example: farmers in this part of Wisconsin who post their land. They know the perfect spot for a deer stand since it is their own land, and with no other hunters, the deer settle down. They will often shoot their deer at maybe 40 yds. when it is brousing off of a small patch of standing corn the farmer has left for just that purpose. However, many of these sorts of hunter do not boast, or smirk, or think it's somehow a badge of pride to go for 20 years on one box of shells.

As for the fellows who take pride in insanely long shots, like 500 yds -- this is a new fad. Some use fancy gadgets like laser rangefinders. I'm nearly 70, and I guess I have to expect to see changes in the way the world works. Fads come, fads go.

Another trend seems to be use of .223s for deer. I think this is partly because so many tens of thousands of "tactical" rifles in .223 have been sold. I see a lot at the range. Instead of selecting a cartridge for the game to be hunted, folks have purchased these semi-auto paramilitaries for their own enjoyment. Nothing wrong with that. They then decide they really like the gun, and why can't I just use that for deer? Well, a good shot can probably get away with it -- for a while, at least, before blowing the jaw off a deer and watching it run away. Because head shots are attempted, not always successfully, when using a .223 for deer. For what it is worth, I believe this is legal in Wisconsin. But is it WISE? There's the issue.

Thanks again for the fun discussion. And I can say "amen" to some well intentioned newbies going through all kinds of confusion and "hurt" on sight in day. Like butcher paper targets at 100 yds with holes randomly scattered across it about 18 inches apart. I wish them luck.
 
Butch,

I understand that....Dad and I are on the same lease and he has shot 1 or 2 deer in the last 5 years and I'm highly involved in our mngt. program and we have strict rules to control the # of does, through our biologist / fly over ,etc.

We have orders to shoot every pig on site as their numbers are getting out of hand & I just like killing coyotes period. The deer has become more work than fun sometimes because of hunters like Dad but I do not mind taking up the slack, plus the fam loves the meat.

Dad just does not brag about his lack of trigger time as I'm guessing Mike's Dad or your brother.

All hunting areas are different & tend to roll my situation over which certainly is not fair.

pf
<><
 
What it boils down to really is that shooting is for most, a smaller part of hunting.
There is nothing wrong with that, or with bragging about it, or the gun used to do it.

I like it when fellow hunters show as much spirit.
And their enthusiasm is bound to spread..
 
Here's some enthusiasm...

from a couple weeks ago...pigs did not enjoy it near as much:) The guy in red had never shot a gun much less killed anything, so we let him do the honors at the trap.

pf
<><
 

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Hunters vs shooters

Papere kept himself, Meme, and eight kids fed with a 22lr during the depression. He was a hunter. Caliber and be damned, if one can hunt one can eat. Hitting tiny targets at hundreds of yards is absolutely marvelous. Seeing game in these thick central NH woods is an art unto itself. Hunters and shooters is like apples and oranges.
 
All are shooters and I except them as such. I remember being asked by a old hunting buddy of mine,"how many rounds do you shoot a year?" I really had to think about that. I remember my reply. I can think in the terms of the components I went through this past year. How may jugs of powder and cases of primers. To put a number on how many rounds is difficult. I Asked him how many rounds he went through and his answer was rather simple. I don't know, but I put X number of deer and elk in the freezer and game birds uncounted. Each of our focuses was different, but we are still shooters and we both are gun people.

I grew up around people that did not count their trips to the dump or a range, the only thing that counted was putting meat on the table.

Some people believe in the idea that there are natural shooters, some people believe to be a good shot you have to shoot a lot. I'm in the group that thinks to stay proficient you have to shoot a lot.

"We all are shooters" You want them to be a shooter like you? The problem then becomes, how do we motivate them to come shooting with us? A fun day with a favorite can gun, is one way. I don't know just how interested we are to get some motivation into are fellow shooters. I look at the lack of motivating shooters as my problem, not there's.

There is a personal cost, are we willing to spend the time and ammo to motivate them? I have made it my habit in life to motivate young and old by giving the first .22 rimfire to kids and cartons of ammo. Adults that did not come from a shooting family cheep center fire rifles and surplus ammo and took them out shooting. All of this time and effort has payed off handsomely. Ever one of them have turned out to become a "GUN NUT", everyone has turned out to be shooters that spends a lot of time shooting. Some of the folks that had not been introduced to shooting have become total hunting fools. The upside to all of this is the chance to teach them gun handling and gun safety.

I just can not find fault in shooters that are not like me, the fault I find is in me, for not helping them have fun with shooting. It all starts with the question, do you like to roll cans?
 
hunters

i would think if you had invested a lot in time travel ect for your hunt that you would prepare "to shoot" too. hunting coues whitetail you won't be successful at all if you have not prepared . they live in very rough country and the shots are generally long. the deer are small. the deer are hard to spot even with 15X56 swaro
 
Example

I meet a great guy from Wisconsin in Wyoming this year.

He had some property in WI were he hunted deer from a tree stand. He told me it was very simple and got no real thrill from those hunts; because it was no big deal. One shot dead deer.

HOWEVER........He was hunting cow elk in Wyoming and after he harvested his cow elk the guy was walking around on a cloud.

There are some states were you can harvest four deer or more; because they are a hazard to the motoring public. Where I grew up in Ohio the insurance companies demanded it.

So there are lots of places one box of 30-30 cartridges will net 20 deer.
 
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