How to get more participation...

D

David Valdina

Member
The Wind Shooting thread got transformed into issues of participation and in one of the posts a member said "...If I could go and shoot 8 or 10 targets on a week-end, or a 6 target tournament, I might consider a little more traveling, but we don't have Sporter Class rifles and to travel that distance for two targets per match is not cost efficent." So it occured to me that the rules might be modified to allow local clubs, if they wish, to allow all rifles to shoot in all matches and report the results in the catagories represented by the rifles. For example, if the 3rd match is a Sporter Class and I have no Sporter rifle, I would be allowed to shoot my 10.5 pound class rifle but my results would not be reported under the Sporter Class. If reporting my score under the 10.5 pound class would present a problem, just don't report, but allow the shooting. I would know how I did, would be getting trigger time and having fun. Might get a few more folks out to the matches.
 
David,

I totally appreciate what you are suggesting because, believe me, I too was once there way back when. And it is a nice concept! But, there would be more than a few problems that immediately come to mind if we were to loosen up the rules to that point.

First of all, what you are suggesting has already been taken into consideration back when the Unlimited Classes were introduced into IR 50/50 and RBA, plus there is an entire discipline dedicated to shooting whatever you bring to the table, and that's the ARA. The problem is; not all ranges shoot everything. And, even if they do, the different disciplines have to be shot as separate events even though they may be scheduled for the same day.

Secondly: if we start altering the rules to allow Heavier non-Class guns on the line while the Class in question (pressuming you are referring to the Sporter Class) is being shot, then other problems will arise. I have meet hundreds of different shooters from around the country while attending 7 different IR 50/50 Nationals, plus have gotten to know many more through contacts by phone or over this forum, so, before I say what I am about to say, I want to clarify that it does not apply to very many shooters at all, and maybe only the one I am about to critique.

For a many years we at Pinnacle had a shooter (who will remain nameless) whose main goal in life seemed to be to challenge every single rule he could to the point of often needing clarification for future matches from Headquarters Central, ie: Helen and Milt Cook (Helen and Milt just loved this guy), plus, you could always tell he took great joy in frustrating the living Hell out of the rangemaster. He was the nicest of gentleman who always arrive in what I would call business attire, and was exceptionally brilliant, plus he had the means to buy whatever he wanted. (There is an unbelieviable sidebar about him that I won't go into as it is way too long. But, just to give a teaser:
He could not physically qualify for the military back during the Viet Nam war era, but was very curious about it, plus was heavily into photograph at the time. So, having almost limitless means, plus a few nameless contacts, he went out and paid his own way over just so that he could take pictures of what was happening). Anyway, he always arrived at the last minute, seemed to always need the maximum amount of time to get set up and readied. He had the best of best equipment, which usually meant arrived with a new gun for each match, and sometimes two, or even three. And was an outstanding shot. The one to beat so to speak.
Now, I'm not saying he ever did anything that would warrant him being disqualified, or ban from our events. And he wasn't disruptive in any way to the rest of the shooters other than for those in charge. Plus, as I said, he was a great shooter to the point of being a 2-Time National Silhouette Open-Class Champion. But, he sure knew how to walk a thin line between being a nice guy, and being a flamer. Once you got to understand him though, he was very entertaining!

Where I'm going with this is, and as an example: if we were to do like you are suggesting, a fellow like this would then set-up his photography equipment on an open bench at the line in order to photograph what was happening during the shooting, which in all disciplines is listed as being not allowed as no one is allowed to occupy an open bench during a match, and would argue that he had every right to be there because we were allowing a non-Class rifle to shoot for pleasure only during that Class.

Just an example and some thoughts to consider before going too far out on that limb.

Dave Shattuck
 
David to Dave, a bit more on this...

Hi Dave, You have not mentioned one problem that would take place, and I for one, can't see any in the shooting of an event. Now, I will agree that problems can arise in regards to posting the results, but that is not a problem for the shooting line. .22 rimfire rifles, regardless of weight or scope, shooting standard velocity cartridges at identical targets 50 yards away. And, if this simple allowance will cause more folks to be willing to attend, everyone is benefited and nobody hurt. I think it important to keep in mind that all man made laws can be modified. At one time, there was no such thing as the designated hitter in baseball. I bet if you go back to when it was being considered you will find a great outcry of alarm, but the game continues to be a favorite. If you have another solution to the problem as presented, happy to hear it. But telling folks to just spend the money to buy another rifle so as to shoot, won't be looked at as realistic to those struggling to make ends meet and still enjoy the sport.
 
My last word on this!

Okay David, let's take a look at Pinnacle Mountain for example only because that is where I have been shooting for over 14 years, plus have any right to speak for as I have been Rangemaster there for 12 1/2 years. During that time as Rangemaster I have always tried to bring in as many of the other disciplines as possible if for no other reason than to give our shooters a taste of what is available, and have always let it be known that if there were enough interest expressed in any one of those other disciplines, we could easily try to add it onto our schedule so long as it could be coordinated into the club's schedule. We have tried most all of the other disciplines at one time or another, that is except for group shooting, with little to no interest being shown toward anything except for the IR 50/50 3-Gun ...oh, and now with AGBR. In fact, in order to try and fit into more shooters schedules I even changed our regular day of shooting from Sunday to Saturday as several shooters had requested the change, plus Saturday didn't seem to conflict with as many of the other ranges within a 200 miles radius from the club as most of them were also shooting on Sunday's.

Even though shooting most of those other disciplines would mean a shooter would only need one gun, it still made little to no difference.

Some of the different disciplines we have shot at Pinnacle over the years have been, and in no particular order, IR 50/50 3-Gun, Unlimited and 100 Yard, UKBR22, RBA, USBR, ARA, and AGBR. If there had been enough interest shown in any of those others we would probably still be shooting those as well as IR 3-Gun and AGBR as most of those not only require a single gun, but also have lower minimum attendance requirements which would make it a whole lot easier to be sure of holding an official. But, instead of seeing our numbers grow during these expansions, we in fact saw them decline across the board with well seasoned shooters refusing to even attend most anything but IR 50/50 3-Gun, and that was even when the second discipline was backed up as a tag-along match to our current IR 3-Gun matches, the same as we are now doing with AGBR.

You wouldn't know this, but Pinnacle use to not only shoot throughout the summer season from April through October, and sometimes even shooting on two separate weekends per month, but then we would turn right around and enclose one end of the firing line, around the wood stove, in order to shoot throughout the winter months from January through March as well while holding 2 matches per month. During the winter session we would shoot through portholes at everything from our standard IR targets, to ARA, to USBR, to IR 100 Yard, and everyone would have a ball! Sometimes we would have as many as 16 shooters show up for a match even though there were only the 6 benches enclosed.

But, as with everything, over time those numbers began to dwindle down until eventually it started being more like two, three or four. Now, I don't mind making arrangements to meet with a couple of other shooters to have a fun shooting session, and I have no problem with doing the work required to get everything set up if the numbers warrant it, but I'm not going to go through all the work of getting set up to run an official match, meaning arriving at the range by 8 A.M. when the temp is at a minus 10° to 15° below zero, and the wind is at a plus 25 to 30 MPH, then fire up the wood stove, and trudge out through 4 to 10 inches of newly fallen snow, while carrying a half dozen target stands out one at a time, only to have the match go bust because no one else bothered to show up. Believe me when I say that started being the norm rather than the exception.

My point is this: I've been around for a while and have made more than a few attempts at trying to increase our numbers at Pinnacle with little to no success. But, having said that, I do have to add: this year up on the Mountain our numbers were up, higher than they have been at any time over the last 4 years prior.

If you have an idea that you think might work, I'll be more than happy to listen. And, if it's something that might be work into our schedule, and is within the way the rules are written, or can be added onto what we are now already doing, plus will fit into the club's schedule, then we should go for it!

Dave Shattuck
 
Just about everything you've suggested had been thought to have been part of the Unlimited Class development. This was in part an attempt to incorporate not only more targets but allow registered matches for guns that might not be allowed in other classes, possibly attracting shooters that might not participate in the standard 3-gun format. To a large degree that has been largely unfulfilled, most shooting is done by the same folks there for the 3-gun shooting essentially the same guns with little exception.
 
As I understand the rules...

As I understasnd the rules, if you don't own a Sporter class rifle, you can't shoot in the Sporter class event. The fellow I quoted in my first post doesn't have one, and will not drive a long distance just to shoot in two events. This leaves open the possibility he would drive the distance and shoot if he was allowed to shoot in all three events. Now he did not go into detail as to whether or not the score would need to be published or otherwise counted, but I supplied the thought that some, me for example, would be happy to shoot even if the score is never recorded or published. So you ask what I suggest, just what I suggested in my first post. That the rules be modified by IR 50/50 to allow non-conforming guns to the line to shoot. I remember I had shot a 10.5 pound gun in a Sporter class event before I knew the rule and enjoyed shooting. I was disappointed when I was told that I had committed a breach of the rules and the rules said I could not bring that gun to the bench to shoot in Sporter class. I was able to afford to buy a Sporter class rifle, but not that long ago, I would not have been able to do so. I realize this would need to be a modification on a higher level that any local club, but this forum is the place to throw out the suggestion.
 
I would think you would see more participation if the match was more like, dare I say it, golf. I do not care about golf at all, it's just a waste of a good shooting range, BUT, in golf, how well someone does is totally upon their skill level. I have absolutely ZERO time behind a golf club, and with that in mind, give me the finest set of clubs you like and give Tiger a shovel, and I am sure who would win. Do you think any of the top shooters would win with a Marlin 39?

What the shooting sports needs is a game where you don't need a GTP or F1 car to compete. Place more emphasis on the persons skill and a limit on equipment. Keep it as cheap as possible.

Everyone wants to have fun, I do. But just think of how much more fun you could have if you could save half of what you spend now. Saving money is fun, or you could shoot twice as much, which is fun as well.
 
Let's take this from the point of view of another shooter on the Sporter line.

If I'm shooting a 3 gun match under the rules of 50/50, and the target is the Sporter Class, then I expect that when I take the line the other shooters will be shooting to the rules of the match.

I would find it a mental distraction to have a shooter on the line either shooting an unlimited class gun or taking up an empty bench. The 22 rf games are 100% mental, with the other 50% being the equipment race.

The Sporter Class is a 7.5 lb rifle / 6.5 power scope / removable clip with a 2 round capacity, etc. That's the game and that's where I put my mind set to compete.

The Unlimited Class opens the line up to all shooters.

One solution to the dilemma presented by DV is for a club to offer a 3-gun match followed by a 3 card UL match. This format gives the shooters who cannot participate in the Sporter class the opportunity to show up later and play the UL game.

Dave V. -- I understand the point that you are trying to make, but I can't agree with your proposal with respect to USRA IR50/50 matches.

Best,
Michael
 
David Valdina

Could you please tell me where it says in the rules that you can't shoot a heavy gun while everyone else is shooting sporters. I have shot IR/50 3 gun for several years and I didn't know you couldn't. Of course the score wouldn't count. The only thing I could find is that no one can occupy an empty bench. To me this is to keep people not fireing off benches. If you are fireing a different size rifle this would not apply in my own opinion. I will look forward to any explanations on this.:rolleyes:Mickey
 
Place more emphasis on the persons skill and a limit on equipment. Keep it as cheap as possible.

Everyone wants to have fun, I do. But just think of how much more fun you could have if you could save half of what you spend now. Saving money is fun, or you could shoot twice as much, which is fun as well.[/QUOTE]

One problem that I see with inferior equipment and ammo is that you remove a person's skill and revert back to sheer luck. Kinda like shooting shotguns at a turkey shoot.
Gene
 
Why don't some of you guys try . . .

. . . an OUTLAW match.

Step outside the box. I have found it is the way to get new shooters involved. We have developed a set of outlaw rules over on Rimfire Central, that is working for our club here, and is working for a few other clubs and a bunch of individual shooters around the country.

We have 4 classes:
Unlimited
Vintage Smallbore
Semi-Auto
Factory Sporter

We shoot 25 & 50 yard matches on the USBR target.

The Smallbore rifles must have wood stocks, factory barrels & stocks, and no tuners
Not many restritions on the Semi-Autos
The Factory Sporters must have factory barrels & stocks with a weight not more than 8.5 lbs. There is a blue book limit on value to keep out the customs, Sporter Anschutz, and Coopers. Scope Max: 24 power. And we do not allow match grade ammo on the Factory Sporter Class. Most use Wolf & SK.

Our club gets an average of 20 shooters each month. The RFC On-Line Matches get a turnout of about 100 each month. (That includes the 20 from our club)

It's a good farm league for the sanctioned matches sponsored by the National Association. A lot of the sanctioned match shooters got their start in the RFC On-Line Matches. We have been running these matches for the past nine years on Rimfire Central. Bet ya didn't know that.

Joe Haller

Sept-OctMatch.jpg
 
I like the idea of welcoming in shooters with any skill level or any class of rifle. I know in my area there are people that would shoot if they could be more competitive with thier "off-the-shelf-factory" 22 rilfes and "chain store bought" ammo. And YES you can want to win and still not be able to dump endless $$$ into this blackhole we call benchrest.

But .... the drawback of allot of classes is that you could end up with 2 or 3 shooters in a class.

Has anybody ever tried some sort of "Agg (or score) Handicap" system? I've thought about it for some time and had a few ideas, but I'd like to know if anyone has ever tried it and what they found out.

It would be set up where you would get less handicap points if you had better equipment or were a better shooter. So the best people would shoot with no extras points added to their agg (or target score) while the people with the worst equipment and least skill would get the most points added to their agg (or target score)

Obviously the actual handicap point values and how the system would work needs to be figured out but I think that it's something to think/talk about.

Mike
 
Go buy a factory sporter, CZ 452 is a fine one and isn't going to break you.

I have shot one in several 3 gun matches at Gene Corvins, did I win ? no but I had a good time trying to out shoot Gene with it. hehe
 
Reply to Mickey Law

Mickey Law asks: "Could you please tell me where it says in the rules that you can't shoot a heavy gun while everyone else is shooting sporters. I have shot IR/50 3 gun for several years and I didn't know you couldn't. Of course the score wouldn't count. The only thing I could find is that no one can occupy an empty bench..." and my answer is I don't know, it is just what everyone I shoot with told me. I got into this BR game just this year. I bought an old Remington 40x advertised on a wall at a range in NH with a 36x Tasco scope and I was in business. I shot this rifle at one of the Sporter matches there and after the match someone noticed it on the rack and told me I couldn't use it. Why Mike says if I used it it would distract him is beyond me. Heck, I shoot rimfire iron sight off a bench when I am in Florida at a public range with the centerfire guys shooting their cannons and can put up with it. There have been enough posts by others all saying attendance is dropping off and it is healthy for the sport to get more folks to attend and shoot. Joe Haller has some good ideas, both under this post and under the post, wind shooting. If I had known from the start what the restrictions would be and the costs of getting into this, I would have just bought a lightweight rifle and put on a variable scope or quick detach rings and had 2 scopes, one for Sporter class and one for the heavier classes. I still may do that for a rifle to live in Florida where I live 6 months of the year. If it turns out shooting the heavier rifle, just for fun, in the Sporter class is ok I will be very happy to hear that as it will give me more choices as to what to buy for Florida. My best regards, David
 
Mike S:

You said in your last post: "But .... the drawback of a lot of classes is that you could end up with 2 or 3 shooters in a class.

In our last match we had:
19 in Unlimited.
3 in Vintage Smallbore
12 in Factory Sporter
4 in Semi-Auto

Did we care that there were only 3 in Vintage Smallbore? No, because we do not give out awards to the match winners. All they get are bragging rights. Those three shooters had as good a chance as anyone else in the draw for shooting related prizes. Since we gave up the expensive trophy/plaque awards system, our match attendance has exploded. The club made more that $700 on that last match.

Joe
 
Max

On shooting multiple classes concurrently go to aircapgunclub.org and check out thier rules for the fun match on the 2nd sat of the month. Then call George Hanson and visit with him. They just hang the respective target for the class you want to shoot in and it is scored in that class. 2 or 3 classes might be shot in each relay. Other than the semi-auto class you can shoot your sporter in 2 or 3 classes. It does handicap one with the sporter but with a varible you can at least get closer to sighting parity. There have been some rule changes this year so you need to talk to George. Max Shaffer
 
David

I don't know where you shoot, but when I first got started and was shooting a Ruger 77/22 I was allowed to shoot it in the sporter class. My scores were not counted but I was allowed to shoot. They were shooting IR 50/50 and it was the call of the Match Director. I've seen this at several Ranges, so ask your guys to allow you to do this and just not count the score.
 
Back to Fiddler

Hi Steve, I did and they said no, a rule is a rule. I am the new kid on the block and solved the problem by buying a Sporter class rifle. I can afford that today, but some years back I wouldn't have been able to. I feel sorry for folks in an economic bind. Also, I didn't know a Ruger 10/22 wouldn't be legal if it made weight and the scope was not over 6.5x. Oh well.
 
. Also said:
I don't see any reason a 1022 would not be legal for the sporter class as long as it makes weight and the stock conforms to the rules in 50/50. I don't have a problem letting a new guy shoot a 10 1/2 lb. rifle in sporter class as long as he pays the entry fee, the target fees are paid to Wilbur and he is promptly DQed for being overweight. Some see this as an unfair advantage as they get to sight in and pick a condition to shoot in the later classes, when they are basically practicing. Our matches around here are all 3 gun followed by UL. You get to shoot 5 targets for your trip with the 10 1/2 lb. rifle.

Ken
Click to expand...
 
a different match is shot at my home range (Crosswinds) it is called a Meat shoot. ARA targets but with basicly factory guns. no tuners, only 2 piece rests, no flags, anything goes for guns as long as they are not typical big heavy BR guns. Examples are Savage MK II, CZ 452/3, Marlin 25, Ruger 77/22, Ruger 10/22, Malin 60, T/c bench mark or classic are all legal. just simple basic equipment that almost anybody has. i need to get out and shoot my NS 522 in these things just for the heck of it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top