How much cleaning is enough?

D

dwestover

Guest
I have barrels by several manufacturers. They show varying amounts of copper fouling after shooting. Most show very little copper fouling after proper break in. All of them have one thing in common. Even after the copper fouling has been completely removed, another brushing will loosen up what appears to be carbon fouling and the next patch comes out black. I've done this up to 3 or 4 times after getting the copper out and it just keeps happening. I hate to keep brushing for fear that I might do more damage than good. Do any of you see this? I use TM solvent.
Don
 
try using a new brush after you think you have it all cleaned out. could be leftovers on your brush.
 
I clean the brush

Earl,
I clean the brush after each use with Barricade spray (used to be sheath) and then shaking the excess off. I do this to clean it and to stop the action of the solvent on the brush.
Don
 
How much cleaning is enough

I never knew the answer to this question until I invested in a borescope. I found I was cleaning too much.
Chino69
 
Chino----funny but I found the opposite was true. The carbon is the tough stuff to get out esp when the copper is layered under it..
 
75% GM Tech mixed with 25% Marvel Mystery Oil removed carbon.
 
Cleaning

This is a subject that will have as many varied opinions concerning "what is best" as any task we perform.
It amazes shooters when I tell them that I am not interested in getting every little smidgen of carbon, and even copper, out of a barrel. The reason. We do not shoot aggs with clean barrels. We shoot aggs with dirty barrels.
After you scrub and clean that barrel down to bare metal, just what do you think it looks like after the first shot?? After you think about that, think what it looks like after the 10th shot in an Unlimited group, which might be the 15 or 20th shot during that match, depending on how many sighters were used. And, keep in mind,you fully expect the 10th shot to follow the exact same path as the first nine.
This is probably why my simple cleaning procedure works in Competition. Three wet patches, brush about ten strokes, then enough wet patches to remove the 'brush blue", let it soak while reloading for the next match,, then patch it out before you go back to the line.
That is the same procedure that I have used ever since Butches Bore Shine was brought out. I really believe that with cut rifled barrels, such as Kriegers, you do not want to remove that copper wash and carbon that is embedded in those thousands of near microscopic tool marks. Once it is there, just consider it part of the barrel and tune from that perspective.
Because regardless how much you scrub, after a few shots, you are right backwhere you were.
Shooters have suggested that the reason I get away with this is because of the elevated pressures I shoot at. It literally burns everything out, never letting any build up occur. I don't know about this. But, one thing I do notice, is, after the third wet patch, the "black' is gone out of the barrel, and I can let it soak for 15 minutes without brushing, and the patch will show just a hint of "blue".
Maybe that is the method to the madness.........jackie
 
Too much cleaning

Boss Hoss 540 said:
Chino----funny but I found the opposite was true. The carbon is the tough stuff to get out esp when the copper is layered under it..
Click to expand...


I go after carbon when I see it starting in the throat area. The trick is to keep it from caking and layering by staying on top of it before it becomes cululative. As far as copper, I leave a slight copper wash in the bore; there's no need to remove it all. Before the borescope, I used to think squeaky clean was the way to clean but I don't go for that anymore.
Chino69
 
I'm reluctant to post on this subject because there are so many opinions. But I have had such good results that I just must share.

Since I started cleaning for carbon, I have had virtually no problems with copper. This includes about 40 benchrest barrels over the last 3 years.

My procedure is this:
1. One wet patch with Butches or equivelent.
2. One wet patch with Slip 2000 (carbon cutter).
3. Wet brush with carbon cutter and give it about 12-15 strokes. After about the 4th stroke you will notice that the rough feeling area just ahead of the throat will start to smooth out.
4. One more wet patch with Butches.
5. Remove bore guide and mop out the chamber area with a new patch wrapped around a chamber mop.
6. Take that same slightly wet patch and carefully push it through the bore.
Done!

This process removes the carbon area just ahead of the chamber. This is the most important thing. During the shot as the bullet goes over this area, if there is carbon here, a small amount of that copper can be stripped off the bullet which is subjected to the hot combustion process. That now molten copper substance is then allowed to cool as it heads down the remainder of the barrel and attaches itself to the bore further down. Hence copper in the bore.

If there is no carbon to act like sandpaper and rub copper off the bullet, no more problem. NO CARBON, NO COPPER!!!

An added bonus, only 4 patches used per cleaning, very little chemical used and best of all, brushes last forever because Slip 2000 does not attack the bristles.

Good shooting,
Larry
 
jackie schmidt said:
This is a subject that will have as many varied opinions concerning "what is best" as any task we perform.
It amazes shooters when I tell them that I am not interested in getting every little smidgen of carbon, and even copper, out of a barrel. The reason. We do not shoot aggs with clean barrels. We shoot aggs with dirty barrels.
After you scrub and clean that barrel down to bare metal, just what do you think it looks like after the first shot?? After you think about that, think what it looks like after the 10th shot in an Unlimited group, which might be the 15 or 20th shot during that match, depending on how many sighters were used. And, keep in mind,you fully expect the 10th shot to follow the exact same path as the first nine.
This is probably why my simple cleaning procedure works in Competition. Three wet patches, brush about ten strokes, then enough wet patches to remove the 'brush blue", let it soak while reloading for the next match,, then patch it out before you go back to the line.
That is the same procedure that I have used ever since Butches Bore Shine was brought out. I really believe that with cut rifled barrels, such as Kriegers, you do not want to remove that copper wash and carbon that is embedded in those thousands of near microscopic tool marks. Once it is there, just consider it part of the barrel and tune from that perspective.
Because regardless how much you scrub, after a few shots, you are right backwhere you were.
Shooters have suggested that the reason I get away with this is because of the elevated pressures I shoot at. It literally burns everything out, never letting any build up occur. I don't know about this. But, one thing I do notice, is, after the third wet patch, the "black' is gone out of the barrel, and I can let it soak for 15 minutes without brushing, and the patch will show just a hint of "blue".
Maybe that is the method to the madness.........jackie
Click to expand...


This is why cleaning is such a debated topic---my smith who is a HOF shooter showed me that to start with a clean barrel every time is very important. I am not a point blank shooter but my smith is and his regimen makes mine look tame. He usually waits until he is back in the hotel room at night but will Iosso the bore until it is absolutely bare metal when the chips are down.

The fundamental flaw and in my view the lazy way to do things is to leave the tube partially dirty. When starting from a clean condition it will generally take 3 to 6 shots on my Krieger tubes to bring peak consistency (do the same thing when working up loads) and that is just about all of the sighters I will need before a relay. If I start from a completely tube then I am starting from a known condition and know where to make adjustments otherwise, you are guessing and that is not a good thing in my view.

One thing for certain the bore scope will remove any doubt whatsoever of how much cleaning is required.
 
coat with oil after cleaning?

One last thought. After I have finished cleaning, I run a patch wet with Butch's Gun Oil through the bore. The first shot removes the oil and I begin my foulers and sighters. Is it possible that shooting through a bore wet with oil contributes to the carbon problem. I had found during break in that when I didn't coat with oil after cleaning, the first shot gave me bad copper fouling.
Don
 
Boss

Nothing lazy about it at all. I use a procedure that works best for me. I am a Point Blank Shooter, and if I thought ISSOing and JBing would be better, I would be doing it.
I have told this story before, but this is a case where it bears repeating.
At the Nationals at Midland about 4 years ago, we were all having a "campfire" discussion on the Tuesday Night, before shooting the Sporter 100, about cleaning, much like we are having here. A bore scope was produced,and everybody was invited to bring their Rifles to see how clean they were.
I went and got my Sporter, and said it was clean and ready for the next day.
Well, upon examination, the general consensus was that I needed to learn to clean a barrel. There was streaks of Carbon,and Copper wash in the tool marks, as I described earlier. One shooter even offered to clean it for me.
I said that the barrel was ready, and it was the way I wanted it. Nobody agreed.
Well, the next morning, I went out and shot a .162 agg with that "dirty" barrel, and won the 100. Seems that barrel was a little more "right" than the borescope showed.
To this day, that is still the way I shoot Kriegers. Other barrels, (Buttoned Rifled), I don't know about, because I do not shoot them.
Of course, I am not a Hall of Fame Shooter. And my Gunsmith is not a Hall of Fame Shooter either. But we both muddle along, and pick up what we can on the way..........jackie
 
got a .900 and some change dia. krieger barrel for my ar. i have now put 250 rounds through it. bore scoped it after firing and it has no copper fouling at all, even tried some sweets to see if i could get some color out of it, didn't get any after cleaning it. so i guess this is my first one and only no foul barrel. don't know if it not fouling will make it shoot worse or not. but i did get it to shoot 3, 1/2" half inch groups at 200 yrds the other day. i also found it has a preferred taste for hornadays 52 gr HPBT bullet though.
 
I like to clean mine very well after a day's worth of shooting. I can still see jackie shaking his head about my method:p
 
Dusty

I certainly have to yield to you on your cleaning. The way your Rifle shot at last years South Eastern Region 4-Gun showed that you certainly were not hurting anything with all of that scrubbing.
It is hard to argue with the holes in the target......jackie
 
I don't clean like that during a match. I just don't like the copper to stack up. during the day I like to run a few wet patches with a custom mix until the carbon is gone and I see blue, then brush until it smooths out, then a couple more wet ones until it is a good blue then I load. before I shoot it's a couple of wet ones again then a good dry one then another oily mixture before I send one downrange. then at the end of the day I draw crowds removing all traces of copper just to do it all over again:D
 
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