How clean is too clean/brass prep

D

DHD

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Has anyone done a test to get an answer if having brass cleaned to like new is beneficial, waste of time, or bad for accuracy. Many folks now tumble the brass with SS media and others use ultrasound (me). Yet I understand the pure BR guys prefer to leave some carbon in the necks.

I know this ain't a one way is best, but any real data available.

I know pretty brass don't win matches, but they sure are clean.

TIA
 
I cleaned the inside of my case necks one time at a match with oooo steel wool and it caused my groups to open up on the next relay. I wont do that again. I could feel a lot of variation while seating those bullets. Almost felt like i was seating the bullets on top of sand paper. Thats my experience! Lee
 
I am one of those, what should I call them, Brass NERDS. I like my brass looking quite shiney. Usually at the end of a day of shooting they get a little more TLC but that is just for my own piece of mind. The normal routine when loading at a match is 0000 steel wool to clean the carbon off of the outside of the necks, then a nylon bore brush into the necks to knock off anything loose. I then like to blow the case off with my own breath or use canned air. Just something to knock off the loose pieces of steel wool that come off when cleaning the necks. Imperial sizing wax, run through the die, clean primer pockets, finally a quick wipe with a rag and reload.

I am with Lee on the steel wool on the inside of the necks. I have felt different seating of bullets after using steel wool in the necks.

I think a factor could be not cleaning the outside of the necks before running through the dies. Look at the havoc carbon can bring to a rifle when it starts to build up in the barrel and how hard it is to remove. I feel the same about it on the brass.

CBY
 
I usually do not clean my brass. I have never seen a study where it makes any difference. Also, I normally do not clean my primer pockets. Sometimes if they are really dirty from repeated firings, I may take a few moments to clean them. Again, I have never seen any evidence that it makes any difference.
 
I clean powder fouling off of necks with 0000, brush necks with a retired bronze bore brush, size, clean primer pockets, prime, powder, and seat bullets. When brushing necks, I run the brush in and out of the neck about 3 times, rapidly and call it good. I want to leave some powder fouling for consistency in bullet seating force. For varmint loads, that may be kept some time before being shot, I think that this has the additional benefit of reducing the tendency of bullets becoming cold welded into case necks.
 
Dhd ...

DHD said:
Has anyone done a test to get an answer if having brass cleaned to like new is beneficial, waste of time, or bad for accuracy? I know this ain't a one way is best, but any real data available? TIA
Click to expand...

You'll get lots of opinions, but there's no real data available. :)
 
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abintx said:
You'll get lots of opinions, but there's no real data available. :)
Click to expand...
I hear you loud and clear. I guess a few authoritative opinions will do.

I had to pull down 20 handloads, ten each of a particular load, and noticed a difference in how quick the bullets were to pull from the cases that were not ultrasonic cleaned. It got me thinkin' which ain't always a safe! But man those squeaky clean cases have just have got to shoot better without all that nasty carbon stuff staining the inside of the case necks:D!
 
DHD, Would you share with me your method of cleaning brass with the ultrasonic cleaner. What do you use for a detergent, how long does it take, what are the results, etc. ?

TIA
Dick
 
I tried the steel wool inside the necks as well. It was my attempt to make a more consistant bullet neck tension/grip. I can only guess the super clean brass sticks to some bullets and not others because it sure didn't work. Honestly, it was that bad it was an instant decision to ensure the necks were dirty when I reload.
 
Dick ...

ConRich said:
DHD, Would you share with me your method of cleaning brass with the ultrasonic cleaner. What do you use for a detergent, how long does it take, what are the results, etc. ? TIA Dick
Click to expand...

If you haven't seen this article from 6mmBR.com you might want to read it: http://www.6mmbr.com/ultrasonic.html.

Here are other tips I've gather over time from various sources:

Try using 1/4 teaspoon of Citronox and two drops of Dawn (do not substitute another brand!) in 2 cups of water. Follow this by rinsing the cases well. I then go for a final rinse in the ultrasonic.

My cleaner works on multiples of 5 minutes. So, I do the first cleaning at 25 or 30 minutes, then the rinse for 10 minutes. The brass comes out really nice.

Greg J.

Two Tips for Better Ultrasonic Cleaning

There has been much interest in Ultrasonic case cleaning. Here are two tips to achieve the best results:

De-gas the Solvent Before Adding Brass
One of our readers, Eddy M. in Glasgow, Scotland writes: “I have read a couple of articles recently about ultrasonic cleaning of cases and not one has mentioned de-gassing the cleaning liquid before starting to clean items. As an engineer who traveled around for ten years servicing ultrasonic tanks I would like to point out that the cleaning liquid when first put into the tank has invisible dissolved air bubbles in it which will absorb ultrasonic energy until the liquid de-gasses. (10 minutes in a powerful industrial tank–longer in a small hobby tank). You must let the tank run on its own for 20 minutes on the first use of the liquid to allow this to happen. Only after the new liquid or re-introduced liquid has been de-gassed will the tank give good results.”

Fred Bohl says:
In my July 2006 blog item I also recommended a 10 minute degassing step. I currently have 5 different models of ultrasonic cleaners (from “consumer” to “industrial”) and find 10 minutes to be adequate for all of them to de-gas a proper solution in the main tank. When using a secondary tank or beaker as Jason Barney prefers, another 10 minutes is required to de-gas the solution in the secondary vessel.

Apply Dry-Lube Inside Case Necks
Jason Baney has found that Ultrasonic cleaning leaves the inside of the case-necks so “squeaky clean” that there is excess friction when seating bullets. On a fired case that has been cleaned conventionally (no ultra-sound), a thin layer of carbon remains to lubricate the bullet entry and exit. To restore that lubricity in cases cleaned with ultrasound, Jason applies a dry lube to the inside of his case necks. Jason prefers the $10.95 moly dry lube kit from Neconos.com. With this kit, small carbon steel balls transfer moly to the neck when you place your brass nose-down in the container. :)
 
I wipe the outside of the necks with a cloth that's got a little Hoppe's #9 to remove carbon so that it won't foul up the sizing die, and give the insides of the necks a twist with a worn brass bore brush to knock off any loose crud that might be there. I also clean the primer pockets with a carbide pocket uniformer after each firing on the theory that it's not going to hurt and might help, no data. Hitting case necks with steel wool seems a little harsh, especially on carefully turned necks. It might take awhile to remove a tenth of brass from the necks, but if I don't come near the necks with it I don't have to worry.

For match brass where it's loaded and fired, ultrasonic cleaning might work well, but it seems that the layer of carbon inside the necks might help prevent cold soldering of the bullets and necks. Having some experience with ultrasonic cleaning I doubt that at a match it would work fast enough to clean the carbon from the necks, then you've got wet cases to dry.

Since I don't shoot matches anymore I tumble all my brass in corn cob to remove the sizing lube, but unless I forget it not long enough to get the brass shiny and bright just to clean off lube unless the cases are really nasty. No awards for the prettiest brass that I've ever seen.
 
For what it is worth, I do nothing to the outside aside from smearing a thin coat of sizing wax and re-sizing.

The inside of the necks, I simply run a brush in and out of with a twisting motion.........jackie
 
jackie schmidt said:
For what it is worth, I do nothing to the outside aside from smearing a thin coat of sizing wax and re-sizing.

The inside of the necks, I simply run a brush in and out of with a twisting motion.........jackie
Click to expand...

That's all it takes...of course there are those who will read a hundred page method and work to make that brass as clean as it came from the factory. Hours of prep, careful consideration of length and neck tension, just the right primer pocket depth. Strange, don't see too much of this at the major matches where reloading time is of the essence and the shooters are more concerned with, "don't forget to put the primer in", and, "was that my relay that was called?"

It's the same old story...if what you're doing works...be very careful of changing ANYTHING.
 
Ultrasonic cleaning will roughen brass. This and lack of carbon will give higher seating pressures. Much like annealing will do. Loads need to be tweaked to compensate and I won't hazard a quess as to which is most accurate. I've developed loads in freshly annealed brass that require reannealing to maintain accuracy for that particular load. I'm too lazy.

I once conducted a rather crude test between dirty neck interiors and "polished" neck interiors. This test was done in a 204R with conventional long throat and subsequent long jump. Requires consistent neck tension for accuracy.
First test was polishing the interior necks with 0000 steel wool on a nylon brush chucked in a drill press.
Just ten shots of each fired round robin the dirty necks had the smallest group, BUT the polished neck group had a consistency of shot to shot pattern I could not easily dismiss. Something was happening here.
I then cleaned the necks with 0000 and then progressed to polishing compound on a seperate nylon brush (high speed drillpress)
This particular load really came around at that point. I had proven (to myself anyway) that mirror polishing of the necks could drastically improve accuracy.
In the end it did'nt matter much as I'm not about to go through such a process after every firing. Not to mention the change the brass will undoubtedly go through.
I now do exactly as Jackie does. Haven't tumbled brass for anything in years. If I can't make it shoot dirty I keep trying.

In any gun where the bullet can be seated into or near the lands the difference is probably moot.
 
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My original question came about because I noticed a difference between pulling down 10 each of ultra sonic cleaned cases and 10 not ultra sonic cleaned. Got me thinking about possible extra tension (cold weld or whatever) from the cleaning process. My rifle still shoots great either way, but being a curious type....

Nice to see my experience mirrored by someone else in regards to the article mention on 6mmBR.

The steel wool I was speaking of was 0000 on a nylon brush chucked on my drill press. Oh, I don't turn the necks on this rifle so any little I lose ain't going to amount to much I don't think.

Man, does the chasing extra tenths ever stop???

Thanks for the replies!
 
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