Holbrook Results 11/7/2015

ModelA

New member
Holbrook Sportsmens Club indoor USA score line results 11/7/15
LV class
Stuart Spector RAW .177 248 10X,249 13X, 247 8X, 744 31X
248 10X, 249 9X, 246 12X, 743 31X
Mark Marini RAW .177 242 8X, 247 14X, 246 15X, 735 37X
Peter Wass AA EV-2 .177 250 11X, 249 12X, 250 14X, 749 37X
249 14X, 250 16X, 245 9X, 744 39X
Robin Zosack RAW .177 241 5X, 239 5X, 243 9X, 723 19X

HV Class
Chris Sloan RAW .177 246 12X, 250 13X, 246 11X, 742 36X
Paul Bendix Thomas .177 250 19X, 250 22X, 250 20X, 750 61X
249 20X, 248 16X, 250 20 X, 747 56X
Open Class
Mark Marini RAW .22 246 7X, 248 15X, 249 13X, 743 35X
 
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Great Scores

Peter, you and your EV2 showed us all that the Thomas isn't the only gun that is capable... of course I am biased as my LV gun is an EV2 and IMO I couldn't do better with anything else.

Paul, another 750 with 60+X setting the bar so hard to reach; great shooting Paul.

Congrats to all of you for shooting so well; outstanding scores everyone!

Boomer
 
Peter, you and your EV2 showed us all that the Thomas isn't the only gun that is capable... of course I am biased as my LV gun is an EV2 and IMO I couldn't do better with anything else.

Paul, another 750 with 60+X setting the bar so hard to reach; great shooting Paul.

Congrats to all of you for shooting so well; outstanding scores everyone!

Boomer
Boomer, yes Pete's AAEV-2 shoots well ! I gave him a box of Premieres to try. As they work well in Dave Shattuck and my AA S-400 MPR-FT. He ran out on his 6 th target. I think he might put an order in for some Premieres.
I shot a different lot of Monsters each card. The second match I shot pellets from Damaged sleeve. Won't use them without sorting them.

Paul
 
Well, you know what they say about blind hogs, eh?

Peter, you and your EV2 showed us all that the Thomas isn't the only gun that is capable... of course I am biased as my LV gun is an EV2 and IMO I couldn't do better with anything else.

Paul, another 750 with 60+X setting the bar so hard to reach; great shooting Paul.

Congrats to all of you for shooting so well; outstanding scores everyone!

Boomer

My EV 2 has always shot pretty well for a stock rifle. I don't get to use it very often. I did run out of good pellets on the last card. Guess I should do some testing, eh? It was shooting so well I guess I thought it would shoot anything. Of course, once one looses a couple of shots, it's too late to look for something good.

Pete
 
Ordered the pellets - -

I also ordered some AA Diablos that are 4.51. I had a tin of them that shot very well. It's hard to imagine that just that small amount of size would matter; we'll see.

A major difference between my EV 2 and Paul's Thomas' is the x count. I have never achieved the x counts Paul routinely gets. Barrels, barres, barrels, eh?

Pete
 
Pellet Head Size

Pete I expect you will be surprised to find that the pellets inside the tins will not be the size written on the label. Those of us that own an air gage quickly learned that dome shaped pellets from JSB and Air Arms tins are usually smaller than the size printed on the label and in my experience the tins with a printed head size of 4.52mm or 4.53mm are usually smaller than 4.50mm. as Michael Niksch, myself and others have noted on this and other forums head size is not the only deciding factor as to which pellet will work best in your gun.

Crossman Premiers typically have larger heads and are made with a harder lead alloy than most JSB and Air Arms pellets that work well in guns with larger than average size bores; if you have the patience to wash and lube Premiers they can work well, however Premiers just like every thing else change from lot to lot and die to die.

The most difficult part for me is finding a good pellet and purchasing the rest of them before someone else does.

Paraphrased from one of Michael's posts.

"You are correct in assuming that pellets are not round. I have spent a lot of time with a laser micrometer and a 100x optical comparator measuring pellets. The most round pellets are maybe .0005" difference from largest area to smallest......and those are pretty rare.

Pellet head size is only one of many variables that may or may not make a pellet shoot well. I have 2 different lots (good shooting) of JSB 8.44's that shoot the same average scores over time indoors from the same setup and barrel. One lot has a rather large head (4.53+), and the other has a very small head (4.49-4.50). That pretty much throws out the idea that pellet head size is the determining factor for good shooting pellets.

I have also sorted pellets from the same lot into 3 categories from smallest to largest. I shot 10-12 cards with each category and could not detect any measurable difference. I also combined the largest with the smallest and could see no difference over time. For me, this dispelled the theory that removing the largest and smallest pellets from the mean group size will improve performance.

I have also made sizing dies of all types and never saw any improvement overall. If you look at a pellet that has been sized under a microscope.....it's ugly. It may be more round at the apex of the head.....but the big vertical flat wall section you made to coax it into a rounder shape does not scream performance. Testing backs up that impression.

Skirt diameters, skirt thicknesses, skirt angles, head dome radius, skirt cavity shape, pellet length, concentricity, and many more (along with head diameter) make up the differences from lot to lot. To point the finger at only one of these variables and deem it wholly responsible for accuracy does not make much sense to me.

The best thing you can do is find an indoor place to shoot, and begin doing your own testing in the most methodical manner you can. Don't do things like clean the barrel and shoot 3 different lots and sizes through. Clean the barrel in the same manner every time you change something. Barrel cleanliness (or dirtiness) or differing stages along the way will skew your interpretation of the results. I clean the barrel before every card, and am always surprised to hear that some get 100's of accurate shots between cleanings. H&N pellets are more tolerant of this.....but for AA and JSB with regular rifling barrels......accuracy degrades pretty quickly for me (35-40 shots max).

It is a very time consuming process to systematically evaluate anything. Most people (from what I have seen) are nowhere near patient enough to do it right, and they end up drawing false conclusions from their flawed tests. Those false conclusions, then, influence their thoughts about everything else that follows. You can see how that quickly turns into a slippery slope.

Mike"

It's a lot of work... all part of the game.

Boomer
 
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I also ordered some AA Diablos that are 4.51. I had a tin of them that shot very well. It's hard to imagine that just that small amount of size would matter; we'll see.

A major difference between my EV 2 and Paul's Thomas' is the x count. I have never achieved the x counts Paul routinely gets. Barrels, barres, barrels, eh?

Pete

Pete,

I know up until I tried the 8.44 Premiums, the AA 4.51's were always my pellet of choice in my MPR as they showed way more promise than the 52's.

Dave
 
I see what you mean about head size

Pete I expect you will be surprised to find that the pellets inside the tins will not be the size written on the label. Those of us that own an air gage quickly learned that dome shaped pellets from JSB and Air Arms tins are usually smaller than the size printed on the label and in my experience the tins with a printed head size of 4.52mm or 4.53mm are usually smaller than 4.50mm. as Michael Niksch, myself and others have noted on this and other forums head size is not the only deciding factor as to which pellet will work best in your gun.

Crossman Premiers typically have larger heads and are made with a harder lead alloy than most JSB and Air Arms pellets that work well in guns with larger than average size bores; if you have the patience to wash and lube Premiers they can work well, however Premiers just like every thing else change from lot to lot and die to die.

The most difficult part for me is finding a good pellet and purchasing the rest of them before someone else does.

Paraphrased from one of Michael's posts.

"You are correct in assuming that pellets are not round. I have spent a lot of time with a laser micrometer and a 100x optical comparator measuring pellets. The most round pellets are maybe .0005" difference from largest area to smallest......and those are pretty rare.

Pellet head size is only one of many variables that may or may not make a pellet shoot well. I have 2 different lots (good shooting) of JSB 8.44's that shoot the same average scores over time indoors from the same setup and barrel. One lot has a rather large head (4.53+), and the other has a very small head (4.49-4.50). That pretty much throws out the idea that pellet head size is the determining factor for good shooting pellets.

I have also sorted pellets from the same lot into 3 categories from smallest to largest. I shot 10-12 cards with each category and could not detect any measurable difference. I also combined the largest with the smallest and could see no difference over time. For me, this dispelled the theory that removing the largest and smallest pellets from the mean group size will improve performance.

I have also made sizing dies of all types and never saw any improvement overall. If you look at a pellet that has been sized under a microscope.....it's ugly. It may be more round at the apex of the head.....but the big vertical flat wall section you made to coax it into a rounder shape does not scream performance. Testing backs up that impression.

Skirt diameters, skirt thicknesses, skirt angles, head dome radius, skirt cavity shape, pellet length, concentricity, and many more (along with head diameter) make up the differences from lot to lot. To point the finger at only one of these variables and deem it wholly responsible for accuracy does not make much sense to me.

The best thing you can do is find an indoor place to shoot, and begin doing your own testing in the most methodical manner you can. Don't do things like clean the barrel and shoot 3 different lots and sizes through. Clean the barrel in the same manner every time you change something. Barrel cleanliness (or dirtiness) or differing stages along the way will skew your interpretation of the results. I clean the barrel before every card, and am always surprised to hear that some get 100's of accurate shots between cleanings. H&N pellets are more tolerant of this.....but for AA and JSB with regular rifling barrels......accuracy degrades pretty quickly for me (35-40 shots max).

It is a very time consuming process to systematically evaluate anything. Most people (from what I have seen) are nowhere near patient enough to do it right, and they end up drawing false conclusions from their flawed tests. Those false conclusions, then, influence their thoughts about everything else that follows. You can see how that quickly turns into a slippery slope.

Mike"

It's a lot of work... all part of the game.

Boomer



I measured the old ones I was shooting at the match and the new ones I just got in the mail today. Wow! Also, the shape of the pellets has changed over the two or three years. The new Diablos are shorter and fatter in their skirts than the old ones I have. The Premiers even shorter than the Diablo Field; totally different shape. I haven't weighed any yet but will soon. I have a Lab Balance that I trust to weight in hundredths so will do it soon. I have a road trip first thing in the morning - - . The Yale- Harvard game beckons on

for Saturday. I have been summoned to attend.

Pete


P.S. We were on the Yale side but unfortunately Harvard was a lot better :( , but a fun time All said and done.

Pete
 
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