Hey Wait a Minute!!!!
- Thread starter Wilbur
- Start date
4
4Mesh
Guest
Nor did I. I took it that the tuner when turned could make the gun equally as good as it was without the tuner.
Did I miss something?
I also had to read into what you said and took it that the second gun did not shoot as well as the first. While you did not say as much, it certainly sounded to me as if that was where you were headed. By my thinking, gun #2 is broke and needs work, and thus, could benefit from a tuner. (but could also benefit from getting fixed)
Did I miss something?
I also had to read into what you said and took it that the second gun did not shoot as well as the first. While you did not say as much, it certainly sounded to me as if that was where you were headed. By my thinking, gun #2 is broke and needs work, and thus, could benefit from a tuner. (but could also benefit from getting fixed)
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That's about it
Some posts indicated otherwise. Jackie wrote that he didn't agree with my conclusion that the adjustable tuner didn't work and that set me spinning a bit.
Actually, the second rifle shot well with the tuner installed and adjusted. Unlike the other, it did not shoot as well without the tuner but we agreed without testing that the load could be tuned to bring it in as well as the tuner did....if that makes any sense...
Some posts indicated otherwise. Jackie wrote that he didn't agree with my conclusion that the adjustable tuner didn't work and that set me spinning a bit.
Actually, the second rifle shot well with the tuner installed and adjusted. Unlike the other, it did not shoot as well without the tuner but we agreed without testing that the load could be tuned to bring it in as well as the tuner did....if that makes any sense...
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jackie schmidt
New member
Wilbur
I was responding to a post from another shooter who said that. I should have prefaced my statement with, 'I don't think that is what Wilbur said'. My apologies..........jackie
I was responding to a post from another shooter who said that. I should have prefaced my statement with, 'I don't think that is what Wilbur said'. My apologies..........jackie
Gene Beggs
Active member
Guys, may I interrupt for a moment please?
Wilbur has done a great service to us all by accepting my offer to come to the tunnel and witness, first hand, the effectiveness of adjustable tuners. His unselfish willingness to do this says a lot about what kind of man he is. Before pouncing on him and nitpicking his report to death, I suggest you get on an airplane and come to Midland/Odessa, Texas as he did and see for yourself. Wilbur and I know the truth; do you?
Gene Beggs
Wilbur has done a great service to us all by accepting my offer to come to the tunnel and witness, first hand, the effectiveness of adjustable tuners. His unselfish willingness to do this says a lot about what kind of man he is. Before pouncing on him and nitpicking his report to death, I suggest you get on an airplane and come to Midland/Odessa, Texas as he did and see for yourself. Wilbur and I know the truth; do you?
Gene Beggs
I understand the question
It was my question as well and I tried to convey that. At one point, the status was that the tuner could only make the rifle shoot worse. Some discussion occurred and Gene realized where I was coming from when I said I really needed to see this rifle drop from tune before I could agree that the tuner worked. Moving on to the other rifle, I was able to make a somewhat logical assumption that what I saw there was the same as what I needed to see with the first rifle.....clear as mud ain't it.
It was my question as well and I tried to convey that. At one point, the status was that the tuner could only make the rifle shoot worse. Some discussion occurred and Gene realized where I was coming from when I said I really needed to see this rifle drop from tune before I could agree that the tuner worked. Moving on to the other rifle, I was able to make a somewhat logical assumption that what I saw there was the same as what I needed to see with the first rifle.....clear as mud ain't it.
Gene Beggs And Wilbur Harris
Gene
I happen to like Wilbur a whole bunch as he saved me from an unscrupulous gunsmith many years ago.I also don't consider quoting somebodies exact words to be pouncing or nitpicking.I will decline your offer as I have been using tuners as long as you have and mine are adjustable as well.
Wilbur
My question remains did the gun shoot more consistently or didn't it? I realise your answer may upset Gene or Jackie and fully understand we don't want to do that.
Lynn
Gene
I happen to like Wilbur a whole bunch as he saved me from an unscrupulous gunsmith many years ago.I also don't consider quoting somebodies exact words to be pouncing or nitpicking.I will decline your offer as I have been using tuners as long as you have and mine are adjustable as well.
Wilbur
My question remains did the gun shoot more consistently or didn't it? I realise your answer may upset Gene or Jackie and fully understand we don't want to do that.
Lynn
4
4Mesh
Guest
Gene, Nobody is nit-picking anything. If you remember, the entire purpose of Wilbur's trip was to come back and report his findings. Let's face it, you can't take every person on BRC and give the same class. It was the entire purpose of posting here to then discuss the findings.
Wilbur, Ok, somewhere between your writing and our reading, some signals got crossed but not very many. I would have taken you to indicate that in the second rifle, vertical could be helped with the tuner. I am taking from what you said that on rifle 1, it could not.
Jackie, You simply misunderstand all of what I have said. My basic point is still what I said weeks ago. I think that if a tuner does anything, the gun needs fixed. Something is broke. That particular gun will at times rear it's head and shoot some uggglly groups. I stand by my statement still, and regardless of a tuner helping or hurting, I think everyone can agree that if a tuner does something repeatably enough, then a person certainly should be able to find why and so far, nobody seems to know "why". I say that if they did know "why" they would fix the gun and nix the tuner.
Wilbur, Ok, somewhere between your writing and our reading, some signals got crossed but not very many. I would have taken you to indicate that in the second rifle, vertical could be helped with the tuner. I am taking from what you said that on rifle 1, it could not.
Jackie, You simply misunderstand all of what I have said. My basic point is still what I said weeks ago. I think that if a tuner does anything, the gun needs fixed. Something is broke. That particular gun will at times rear it's head and shoot some uggglly groups. I stand by my statement still, and regardless of a tuner helping or hurting, I think everyone can agree that if a tuner does something repeatably enough, then a person certainly should be able to find why and so far, nobody seems to know "why". I say that if they did know "why" they would fix the gun and nix the tuner.
John Kielly
Shari's fan club
Ducking & weaving again
While I can't disagree with you with regard to point blank benchrest, there are a number of shooting sports of a tad less precision where tuning is a valid option.
I shoot Brit match rifle - 1000 to 1200 yards off my belly with a front (not stock) hand rest using the standard .308 Winchester case & a 5½ pound barrel. As the sport has evolved in recent years, we've understood that the best is a 200 grain SMK or a 210 grain Berger ot SMK going as fast as it can be launched, to minimise the effects of transonic/subsonic interference. We're talking about the 200 at around 2800 fps & the bigger slugs maybe 100 fps slower.
Now, when you load on the cusp of sanity, you mightn't luck onto a sweet spot load. As a matter of fact, of my last three barrels, only one happend to have the harmonics at full grunt to give acceptable 1200 yard grouping, which we define as better than 1 MOA. The other two needed a little cajoling to convert loads with a spread of around 20 fps & SDs better than 5-6 to a nice round group. However, when tuned with the 2 ounce weight that we've found from experience works for most, results have been outstanding. I've already reported in another thread of my current barrel which shrank 27 inch or so grouping back to less than 6 inches at 1000 yards with judicious tweaking.
Now, I could load back to the nearest sweet spot. I know where that is with the 200 SMK, somewhere between 2600 & 2650 fps - 150 fps slower at the muzzle & right on sonic at 1100 yards. In good, even conditions, that velocity would be fine, but get into one of those days when the temperature is up & down like the proverbial & the group goes to hell.
While I can't disagree with you with regard to point blank benchrest, there are a number of shooting sports of a tad less precision where tuning is a valid option.
I shoot Brit match rifle - 1000 to 1200 yards off my belly with a front (not stock) hand rest using the standard .308 Winchester case & a 5½ pound barrel. As the sport has evolved in recent years, we've understood that the best is a 200 grain SMK or a 210 grain Berger ot SMK going as fast as it can be launched, to minimise the effects of transonic/subsonic interference. We're talking about the 200 at around 2800 fps & the bigger slugs maybe 100 fps slower.
Now, when you load on the cusp of sanity, you mightn't luck onto a sweet spot load. As a matter of fact, of my last three barrels, only one happend to have the harmonics at full grunt to give acceptable 1200 yard grouping, which we define as better than 1 MOA. The other two needed a little cajoling to convert loads with a spread of around 20 fps & SDs better than 5-6 to a nice round group. However, when tuned with the 2 ounce weight that we've found from experience works for most, results have been outstanding. I've already reported in another thread of my current barrel which shrank 27 inch or so grouping back to less than 6 inches at 1000 yards with judicious tweaking.
Now, I could load back to the nearest sweet spot. I know where that is with the 200 SMK, somewhere between 2600 & 2650 fps - 150 fps slower at the muzzle & right on sonic at 1100 yards. In good, even conditions, that velocity would be fine, but get into one of those days when the temperature is up & down like the proverbial & the group goes to hell.
Just to be sure
The first rifle - vertical could be created and destroyed with the tuner. The rifle shot as good without the tuner as it did with the tuner at the "best" setting.
The second rifle - vertical could be created and destroyed with the tuner. The rifle did not shoot nearly as well without the tuner but Gene stated that it could be tuned with the load to the equivalent. The conclusion was that this rifle was not in tune loadwise but would shoot well tunerwise.
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All tuner theories are shadowed by the hummer rifle. I think that's kinda what 4Mesh is sayin'.
The first rifle - vertical could be created and destroyed with the tuner. The rifle shot as good without the tuner as it did with the tuner at the "best" setting.
The second rifle - vertical could be created and destroyed with the tuner. The rifle did not shoot nearly as well without the tuner but Gene stated that it could be tuned with the load to the equivalent. The conclusion was that this rifle was not in tune loadwise but would shoot well tunerwise.
______________________________________________________
All tuner theories are shadowed by the hummer rifle. I think that's kinda what 4Mesh is sayin'.
S
ShelleyDavidson
Guest
My opinion
I've built and tried several tuner designs over the last four or five years.
A tuner is just that.... a tuner. It gives you an alternative to varying your load to stay in tune. If a gun can be made to shoot well, and stay in tune, by upping or downing the amount of powder dropped into the case, it can be kept in tune by upping or downing the barrel's vibration frequency with adjustable tuner.
I have yet to try a really heavy barrel weight as Calfee suggests and till I do it'd be arrogant and dishonest to opine whether or not it'll work.
Shelley
I've built and tried several tuner designs over the last four or five years.
A tuner is just that.... a tuner. It gives you an alternative to varying your load to stay in tune. If a gun can be made to shoot well, and stay in tune, by upping or downing the amount of powder dropped into the case, it can be kept in tune by upping or downing the barrel's vibration frequency with adjustable tuner.
I have yet to try a really heavy barrel weight as Calfee suggests and till I do it'd be arrogant and dishonest to opine whether or not it'll work.
Shelley
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Wilbur
1) a tuner can help some barrels but not all. If a barrel is in good natural tune then a tuner will not add much if any.
2)An out of tune load can somewhat be brought in, somewhat, with a tuner.
No, a tuner is not magic, nor is a tuner valuable, or even needed, by everyone. A top quality shooter that can keep their gun in tune with just the load do not need a tuner. You see, those shooters, the TB's, have already culled out the out of natural tune barrels. These are the guys and gals that start each season with 10-20 new barrels and just keep the best 3-4.
You also added another Wilber-Wise saying to the Hammers of Hell book!
It just doesn't get any better than this....except for some warm weather.
Wilbur, you've said a bunch here by stating that;
1) a tuner can help some barrels but not all. If a barrel is in good natural tune then a tuner will not add much if any.
2)An out of tune load can somewhat be brought in, somewhat, with a tuner.
No, a tuner is not magic, nor is a tuner valuable, or even needed, by everyone. A top quality shooter that can keep their gun in tune with just the load do not need a tuner. You see, those shooters, the TB's, have already culled out the out of natural tune barrels. These are the guys and gals that start each season with 10-20 new barrels and just keep the best 3-4.
You also added another Wilber-Wise saying to the Hammers of Hell book!
Wilber-Wise said:
It just doesn't get any better than this....except for some warm weather.
R
Roy Allain
Guest
Sounds like Congress
Geez.
Geez.
1) a tuner can help some barrels but not all.
I can easily support that overall but there's not enough in this one case to make the jump. As stated, it became unnecessary to wait or deliberately de-tune the rifle because of the behaviour of the other rifle. Frankly, I'm a little concerned with that logic but it appears sound.
I can easily support that overall but there's not enough in this one case to make the jump. As stated, it became unnecessary to wait or deliberately de-tune the rifle because of the behaviour of the other rifle. Frankly, I'm a little concerned with that logic but it appears sound.
4
4Mesh
Guest
Wilbur,
Yes, that is somewhat my position. However, I do not believe that hummer rifles are some sort of accident, or are always the result of buying a bushel crate of barrels and picking a few. On this board years ago, my sig line was, "Isn't it funny how the top shooters always get the hummer barrels..." I am a firm believer that hummer barrels are like a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and just as real. In my experience, I have seen effort, $, time and dedication pay off for lots of folks. I sometimes think that there's people who just can't come to grips with that, and would rather think that the people who do well have some divine grace or something. It's just not so.
All I expected when you got back from Texas was an honest opinion and you gave it. I might add, possibly one of the more honest opinions I've ever seen in BR. Face it, folks are going to read things into what you've said, and that's the nature of this game. We all must read our own beliefs into what we see.
The fact that you are satisfied that there is ANY circumstance where a tuner can be a help is more than I would have expected you to come back believing. On that, I stand corrected. On all else concerning the subject, my mind is not changed, equally from your experience, and my own. We just all read the results differently, and that is where the various opinions come from.
Yes, that is somewhat my position. However, I do not believe that hummer rifles are some sort of accident, or are always the result of buying a bushel crate of barrels and picking a few. On this board years ago, my sig line was, "Isn't it funny how the top shooters always get the hummer barrels..." I am a firm believer that hummer barrels are like a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and just as real. In my experience, I have seen effort, $, time and dedication pay off for lots of folks. I sometimes think that there's people who just can't come to grips with that, and would rather think that the people who do well have some divine grace or something. It's just not so.
All I expected when you got back from Texas was an honest opinion and you gave it. I might add, possibly one of the more honest opinions I've ever seen in BR. Face it, folks are going to read things into what you've said, and that's the nature of this game. We all must read our own beliefs into what we see.
The fact that you are satisfied that there is ANY circumstance where a tuner can be a help is more than I would have expected you to come back believing. On that, I stand corrected. On all else concerning the subject, my mind is not changed, equally from your experience, and my own. We just all read the results differently, and that is where the various opinions come from.
Isn't that what you want a tuner to do? Easy, quick compensation for when the load isn't right for the conditions?
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BTW, that's also what we do in RF competition IMO. We tune the rifle for when the ammo isn't quiet right. Lots of people seem to think we are doing something else, but they can't explain why. If we could ever find a lot of ammo that was perfect for the conditions, we would not need a tuner either.