Heretic or Idiot

Vern

Vern

Morethan1waytoskinacat
Ok I have been considering several different things.
However before I start lets try to level the playing field.
A lot of times when we post things in the competition category, especially super detailed things, we (even myself) tend to answer or think that in the long run what do they matter when "THAT" wind comes up it doesnt matter that much.... or does it.

We all know that conditions matter more in some cases than a lot of the things we think are important.
One example some of the top [hall of fame(we seem to be tired of names)] shooters dont do so well in calm conditions (you know who I mean).
BUT they do well in windy and twitchy conditions. Seeing what they say about whats NOT important could it be that some or many of those things really are important in mild, calm, dead (tunnel) conditions?
I ask this/these questions based on the fact that from time to time we see some .1 aggs listed. Sometimes they are in windy conditions. I have shot some .1s (not aggs) in windy conditions but it was by sitting the whole time studying the wind before the commence fire command.
When our groups, winners and following places are measured in the .001 range maybe it really does matter in the long run.

What makes all this come to mind is the fact that I watch some of the long range issues just as one and only one example meplat trimming.
IF IF IF we were in a calmer or more predictable wind condition where .1s can be shot how much difference could some of the things we say "dont matter" might actually matter.
How is it they can matter at 600 or 1000 yards where inches or .1 inches can make the difference and can it not matter (grammer) at 100-200 when .001 wins or place.....?

Have we lost sight of the smallest aggs and what made the sport what it is today?
Look at how anal we are about cleaning, neck turning. WHy is it one makers bullet will work for a lot of people and win a lot of matches but only for a while? Why Why Why???????????

Many shooters are set in their ways........yet there are innovators out there but they get shot down sometimes.....
Bla Bla Bla doesnt do it that way or Bla bla bla does it this way....... lemmings.........? Sometimes ,,,, sometimes just looking for what may really work across the spectrum....?
Sometimes things work across the board sometimes only for a given barrel, bullet powder gun combination this time ONLY.....

I would close this way... I think the only true answer would be if we could test some of these things in a tunnel with 20 different gun and barrel combinations. Then maybe we could find some things that really matter.
Maybe the top shooters have found some things that really matter, even if they dont realize it.
And yes when you get into "THAT" wind unless you are one of "THOSE" shooters maybe it wont matter but what about all the other times for all the other shooters?
 
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Vern,
I think that you probably need to formulate a list of questions, or issues, and deal with them one at a time. It seems to me that if you ask too many questions at once, it discourages answers, because doing so, would require writing a book. So, what do you consider a good starting point? Pick a question. (if you like)
Boyd
 
Boyd I tried to avoid picking one question so as not to choke the possibility of replies or just get the standard "doesnt make any difference" replies. However for simplicity lets 1st try the meplat trimming. The process itself offers several sidebar questions.
Why wouldnt it work remembering the overall theory of the original question.
Also when you trim meplats it would obviously change the weight of the bullets, but does it change them all the same amount?
Hovis I am not the one to run the tests because of several factors.
1 I dont have the funds
2 I dont have access to a tunnel. As I think to eliminate the wind issue to find out if anything really helped.
3 Which brings me to the 3rd point I dont think that my shooting skills are where they need to be in the wind reading.
Last part of last year and so far this year I seem to finish a fairly consistent 3rd overall. But then I am also shooting with people like BG Lot, Kris Whitman and Arnold Jewell just to mention a few.
I guess I was just hoping that someone had maybe run some tests in a tunnel situation and could attest that from that and at least the specific gun they were using that it didnt make any identifiable difference.

I know there is no magic formula for the most part, there are some but they are to elusive. We have heard of them the guy who gets a gun that shoots flat out the same even when making changes that would double the group size of other guns. Things like the supposed hummer barrel or superman bullets.....Those would be nice to know but I was trying to look at some of the more realistic things.
 
For short range benchrest, variations in bullet weight have not seemed to make any difference, at the level that meplat trimming would produce. I got this information from Del Bishop, a fellow that was a fine shooter and bullet maker, and who liked to experiment. My question to him was not about meplat trimming, but weight variations in general, for short range benchrest. I have tried trimming meplats for this application and could see no difference. No, I don't have a tunnel. I do know one fellow who does, and I am pretty sure that he does not trim meplats, and that he would if it made a difference. One thing that I have gleaned from watching a couple of videos of Tony Boyer shooting a match (You Tube) is that he takes more than one load to the line, and seems to make a decision as to which one to use based on the shape of a test group on the sighter target. I believe that I read a comment by Jackie Schmidt that in his opinion, it is common for shooters to no have their rifles at peak tune for the conditions. If the person that has the most Hall of Fame points (by a wide margin) elects to hedge his bets by giving himself some load options, shouldn't the rest of us consider that as an option? Now, I have a question for you. How often do you have shots that don't seem to make sense, given what you see on the flags?
 
The bottom line:
Every shooter needs to determine if that last bullet went where it should have or was it something else.
If the close scrutiny of the flags determined that the conditions didn't warrant that shot being away from the expected impact point, then it has to be something else. You have to go off your gut feeling......did I miss that condition or is the load spitting shots where they shouldn't go? Or did the shot go too far in the direction of the condition? If that's the case, then maybe the load is close to right but still just a bit too wind sensitive. If the shot went UPwind, then the load is terribly off or there was a gun handling problem.
All the little things we fuss over do mean something, but in the end, the majority of it really does all boil down to tuning the gun and watching the flags while trying not to mishandle the gun.
 
Another thing worth considering, that is not components, tune, or equipment, is what I believe Mr. Boyer refers to as table manners. Last Friday, before a match at Visalia, I was visiting with friends, and Tom Libby had just shot a couple of remarkable, five literally looked like one, groups, fire forming some Norma brass. A little while after that, I decided that watching him shoot would be a good idea, since he was in such top form. There was wind. Making sure not to sit too close, I watched while he shot a couple of groups, noting how he addresses the rifle, what equipment he used, and how he was set up. The other thing that struck me was how consistent he was from shot to shot. He did not make any unnecessary movement, and what he did make was the same, every time. For some time, I have been saying that I want to video myself, while shooting, I haven not run down a camera yet, but when I do, I will definitely do it. It is easy to see other's mistakes at the bench, but seeing oneself is just about impossible, without shooting video. Have you ever considered this?
 
Not sure I really understand what Vern is lookin' for here. Maybe y'all can simplify it for me. I do know that the standard "doesnt make any difference" will likely be the best answer in so many cases.

BTW - It's good to have goodgrouper back ain't it!
 
Boyd - before you go to the trouble of setting up a camera on the range, try this. Formulate a test to determine if "table manners" make any difference. Try not to approach the test predisposed. Tom's style may not have had any influence on those good groups.
 
I'ts been my experience from talking to some of the veterans of the sport, that they can tell you what components they used to shoot those tiny groups,but they have difficulty explaining why the bullets all went into the same hole. You get answers like,"It was Luck", "The wind is my friend", "The gun is just shooting" etc,etc.


Glenn
 
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I also enjoy watching good shooters shoot and we've had quite a variety of them at our range in the last several years. One of them is that "other" Hall of Fame shooter who is second on the list. It's not unusual for Allie to come to the warm-up with four or five loads. If the conditions are challenging, like rain, thunder and wind, he almost always goes to the line with two or three loads each relay. In those conditions, though, it is amazing entertainment to see him "shoot the condition"; he's among the best at it. One of the things I appreciate about Allie is that he does it without the latest whiz-bang gadgetry. Usually an old action, nondescript stock, old scope, etc. Usually can't tell you how many grains he's shooting (probably a good thing!) because he only uses clicks. I believe in good equipment, careful loading, good record-keeping and the confidence they give you. But few if any of us can outshoot a tenth of a grain or .001 in ogive length in actual conditions.

I think that if I spend the amount of time at the range, shooting in conditions, that I have spent at the bench weighing, sorting, measuring and obsessing over nothing that I'll be a better shooter. That's my goal for the next few months: load up the couple of good loads I've found and just go shoot 'em. I've been to the range twice, once with 40 rounds meticulously weighed and sorted and once with 40 rounds thrown from my Harrell's and seated with a Forster die. I cannot detect any difference at my level of shooting. My PPC put up several five-shot groups in the low 1s and high 2s, even a couple 0s, with both methods of loading so it finally dawned on me that a lot of the time I have been spending with micrometers and scales I should be spending at the trigger.

For what it's worth, a fairly well-known shooter in the Northeast regularly wins and places well in two classes with cases that never have cleaned necks, inside or out, nor cleaned primer pockets with powder charges that are thrown and seated without checking. One caveat is that he uses a tuner and if the load is a bit off, he clicks the tuner a couple times and puts up Xs. Enough to drive me crazy ...
 
it finally dawned on me that a lot of the time I have been spending with micrometers and scales I should be spending at the trigger.
Click to expand...

Good post Reed,
cale
 
Wilbur in hopes of simplifying a lot of things are said not to be worth while or have no effect on accuracy WHEN the wind blows. Just watch the flags better.
I have looked and noticed some really small aggs. Sometimes they are shot in really bad conditions but most of the time they are under normal (whatever that is) conditions.
When we are measuring groups at .001 or .0001 and some of the AGGS are in the .1s maybe its time to start looking at some of the things that might make a difference.
One thing that has always stuck in my mind is that one of the greatest shooters admits he does not shoot near as well in a calm.
I am just trying to look at what might be missing rather than just jump on the wagon of it doesnt matter just watch the flags.
Yes I watch the flags.
 
I have seen bullets trimmed and tipped that made a difference. But only at 200yds and in tricky wind. With angling winds, the dift difference was quite noticable so a mistake wouldn't cost a person. Is it worth the effort when all other yardages and factors come into play...yet to be determined.

I can say one thing that is absolutely fact:

A perfectly tuned rifle makes a smarter shooter.

Most things that can be or are done in BR (primer pocket truing, flashole deburring, etc) are to trim miniscule amounts off a groups size. None of which makes any difference if the rifle in not in tune.

Hovis
 
Meplat trimming never was about normalizing weight, but BC. This reduces the calm external ballistic price from BC variance, while increasing the price of wind mis-read(due to decreasing BC).
Your bullets, while excellent, suck for BC anyway. So the largest price with this remains wind mis-read/miss-holdoff no matter what you do to em.
Only in dead calm conditions would meplat trimming/repointing to a standard possibly help, but then only if you have meplat variance to begin with.
It would surprise me if your bullets exhibit this.
Sorry,, back to wind..
 
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