Ok, Most of you fellas know i have only been shooting rifles for a little over one year. I am not stranger to shooting sports, as i had a nice semi successful shotgunning adventure, before i developed this rifle sickness. LOL! What i am wanting to know is how one action has the POTENTIAL accuracy gain over another, just because its a couple thou tighter? Ill try and brake this down. I am wanting to have one 600 yard comp rifle. I want it to be a real nice one, so i want to do this correctly. I am going to sell all others to build this one rifle. I am looking at a stiller P-1000 action. This action is a dual port action spin off of the stiller predator action. After talking with Curtis at stiller i learned that this action isnt quite as tight as there dedicated Bench rest action. I dont know were they measure the tightness of these action ( i assume in the lock-up) but the P-1000 is somewhere between 3-5 thou loose or slop or whatever term you want to use. I was told that there regular mag feed predator actions are between 4 and 6. This p-1000 action is a big action and it looks like it would be a dandy action. I just purchased a BAT SV RB LP action with a new HV Krieger 6.5x47L barrel, and i cant decide if i should use this action or sell it? I dont know how tight these BAT actions are but i would think that it may be closer to 2 or 3 thou of slop. Thats what i was told by a fella anyway, i dont know this. The BAT SV is a smaller action but i think it would be fine for this 600 yard rifle project i want to do. So what i would like to know is if all else is equal ( lets just say it is) will the stiller action that has 3-5 thou of play be as accurate as a BAT SV with closer to 2 thou of play, if in fact thats the truth? How important is the tightness of an action when we are talking numbers that are already pretty darn tight. IS a thou or two that much difference on down range performance? I could probably sell this little BAT action for the same money it would take to buy the new stiller dual port P-1000, but is that not a smart move, thats what i dont know. I know BAT is an outstanding action, but the stiller actions are no so bad either. I dont think the 6.5x47L is the chambering i want to stick with, but if i keep or use this BAT SV action i will just have to see how it shoots. I was wanting to do a Plain old 6BR but thats another subject. So keep the little action or go with the much bigger MAYBE a little looser stiller dual port action, thats my question i guess. I have a couple nice rifle that would work for 600 yard shooting but i want to play with just one rifle for this discipline. I want it to be right, so i dont have to second guess my equipment. My little BAT may need a new firing pin as it doesnt sound as strong as my new BAT SV action thats on my ppc, so i am already second guessing it. I know it can be fixed if there is an issue, so i shouldnt let that bother me. I also think because its so small i second guess it. Like i said i want one gun and i want it right. I know i talk to much but i dont have anyone to confide in around here that shoots the 600 yard game, so i have to turn to you fellas. Heck I even thought about just buying a big BAT action and be done with it! I just wish they weren't so expensive! LOL!! Thanks fellas I really enjoy hanging around with you fellas! Lee
help me understand, Please!
- Thread starter skeetlee
- Start date
OK, some opinions......
#1 (This is partly from your other posts) re the little BAT and the quiet firing pin fall. I saw the statement somewhere that "you need a new firing pin" or you think you do.......
IMO you need to back off and look at it a little. These things don't "wear out" nor do they typically break but they DO have adjustments and they DO need to be cleaned, especially after certain events like popping a primer..... So, may I suggest you learn how to disassemble, clean and reassemble the little BAT before you assume it's broken? I'm sure enough that it's fine that I'd buy it sight unseen provided it's something I can use. (I state it this way not because I'm in the market per se, but to illustrate my belief that it's fine.... but hey, I've waited nearly a year for BAT's...... tell me more? I just might take it away from you if you're concerned...
)
#2, fuh'geddabout your ideas concerning "tightness" of these actions. THEY WILL SHOOT!!!! Anything you may think you understand about the relative tightness is IMO immaterial. The tolerances are PLANNED...... not random. There's a difference. They may not even be parallel to centerline, you don't know! But whatever they are they aren't "slop" they're planned tolerance.
Of these two actions I will state as fact that you can't substantiate a "gain" nor a "difference in potential accuracy" between the two. PROOF of this is that if there WERE a demonstrable difference then the poor sucker who mfgd the "less accurate setup" would be begging for work wouldn't he??!!! NOBODY interested on competitive shooting would buy a BAT if it were "less accurate" in some way.... and vice versa.
As always.... be careful where you get your information. These guys that claim answers like "this action can be more accurate than the other" can't normally withstand the scrutiny of truth.
Limbaugh the thing dude! Is it reasonable that a top rated WINNING mfgr makes stuff "less accurate?"
al
#1 (This is partly from your other posts) re the little BAT and the quiet firing pin fall. I saw the statement somewhere that "you need a new firing pin" or you think you do.......
IMO you need to back off and look at it a little. These things don't "wear out" nor do they typically break but they DO have adjustments and they DO need to be cleaned, especially after certain events like popping a primer..... So, may I suggest you learn how to disassemble, clean and reassemble the little BAT before you assume it's broken? I'm sure enough that it's fine that I'd buy it sight unseen provided it's something I can use. (I state it this way not because I'm in the market per se, but to illustrate my belief that it's fine.... but hey, I've waited nearly a year for BAT's...... tell me more? I just might take it away from you if you're concerned...
)#2, fuh'geddabout your ideas concerning "tightness" of these actions. THEY WILL SHOOT!!!! Anything you may think you understand about the relative tightness is IMO immaterial. The tolerances are PLANNED...... not random. There's a difference. They may not even be parallel to centerline, you don't know! But whatever they are they aren't "slop" they're planned tolerance.
Of these two actions I will state as fact that you can't substantiate a "gain" nor a "difference in potential accuracy" between the two. PROOF of this is that if there WERE a demonstrable difference then the poor sucker who mfgd the "less accurate setup" would be begging for work wouldn't he??!!! NOBODY interested on competitive shooting would buy a BAT if it were "less accurate" in some way.... and vice versa.
As always.... be careful where you get your information. These guys that claim answers like "this action can be more accurate than the other" can't normally withstand the scrutiny of truth.
Limbaugh the thing dude!
Is it reasonable that a top rated WINNING mfgr makes stuff "less accurate?"al
Butch Lambert
Active member
Lee, we talked about this before. It appears that you have bought or had several rifles built according to what I have seen on various forums that you post. It appears that you need to buy bullets and powder and shoot one of the ones that you already own. Buying and selling equip. will not put you in the winners circle.
Butch
Butch
thanks al i appreciate your response. I know how to take the pin apart and i even saw a screw that looks to be a set screw. I just dont know what i am doing so i didnt want to start turning on things. I dont know why anyone would want the pin set so light, thus giving me some concern. I also stated that i didnt think it was a big deal, after all it is a BAT and they seem to be the best out there. I just dont know how to adjust if in fact it can be adjusted. Its a nice little action, i just question if its an appropriate action for a dedicated 600 yard rifle?? Still lots to learn, but i am more than willing.
How or why do action makers determine what they want there tolerances to be? Whats the reasoning behind that? The P-1000 is advertised as a long range action, so one would think they would want it as close to perfect as feasible? There again Lots to learn. I appreciate your time in answering my question. I dont always do the best at describing what i would like to say. I knew the tolerances are planned before they start production. I just dont know why they decide one action will be 2 thou and another 3 to 6 thou? Thanks man!! Lee
How or why do action makers determine what they want there tolerances to be? Whats the reasoning behind that? The P-1000 is advertised as a long range action, so one would think they would want it as close to perfect as feasible? There again Lots to learn. I appreciate your time in answering my question. I dont always do the best at describing what i would like to say. I knew the tolerances are planned before they start production. I just dont know why they decide one action will be 2 thou and another 3 to 6 thou? Thanks man!! Lee
Lee, benchrest actions need very little clearance to maintain normal operation. This is because we use them in a controlled environment(most of the time ), keeping them clean an free of debris. A hunting or tactical action on the other hand sees a little more abuse and a little less cleaning. Thus, tolerances are kept a bit looser to allow for that type of environment.
I'd also like to add that I'm with Butch in that I've seen you ask a million questions about tolerances, etc., but I don't recall seeing you post about SHOOTING your guns. Get out there and have some FUN.
), keeping them clean an free of debris. A hunting or tactical action on the other hand sees a little more abuse and a little less cleaning. Thus, tolerances are kept a bit looser to allow for that type of environment. I'd also like to add that I'm with Butch in that I've seen you ask a million questions about tolerances, etc., but I don't recall seeing you post about SHOOTING your guns. Get out there and have some FUN.
Call it style, call it preference, call it a different design model, call it designing for different parameters....... but 5 people will approach a situation 5 different ways. As long as they all WIN then they've all solved the problems inherent to the situation, differently.
Tom at BAT has been called "Too Tight Tom" because he can make an action so tight you gotta' warm it up with your hand before you can get it open......
Jim Borden has a process called "Borden Bumps" which allows free function yet nearly zero clearance lockup. Borden bumps also allow for ECCENTRIC lockup if required......
Stiller has his tricks, Farley, Kelbly, you name it...... there's stuff going on you aren't aware of yet. Pick one of the real BR actions and YOU WILL NOT GO WRONG...... try to over-analyze them and you'll miss the good stuff.
As far as this BAT being appropriate for 1000yd stuff...... what is it?? And what are you chambering it in?? If you're gonna' shoot a .338RUM then no, but for a 6X47L then yeahhh..... and for a WSM, maybe...... see what I mean?
what'chagot? Or what's yer plan?
al
Tom at BAT has been called "Too Tight Tom" because he can make an action so tight you gotta' warm it up with your hand before you can get it open......
Jim Borden has a process called "Borden Bumps" which allows free function yet nearly zero clearance lockup. Borden bumps also allow for ECCENTRIC lockup if required......
Stiller has his tricks, Farley, Kelbly, you name it...... there's stuff going on you aren't aware of yet. Pick one of the real BR actions and YOU WILL NOT GO WRONG...... try to over-analyze them and you'll miss the good stuff.
As far as this BAT being appropriate for 1000yd stuff...... what is it?? And what are you chambering it in?? If you're gonna' shoot a .338RUM then no, but for a 6X47L then yeahhh..... and for a WSM, maybe...... see what I mean?
what'chagot? Or what's yer plan?
al
I can see where you fellas are coming from. I havent been buying all that much really. actually only two rifles in the past few months. I would love to be able to get to the range but it has been zero degrees here in central illinois for the past month. Water Main brakes, snow plows and my to young children have all been on my plate. The weather looks like its going to turn for the better early next week, and you can bet the farm im ready to get out and shoot! Its been driving me crazy!!!!! Heck i have only killed 3 coyotes thus far this season. Last year at this time i think i was around 15 or 16. Weather and work have been a real issue this year for me. But what you fellas are saying is exactly why i am asking these types of questions. I want to have one rifle for each of the games they play in ST Louis and i want to start shooting my butt off!! Believe me i am ready!!!! I have never had a case of cabin fever this bad that i can ever remember, kinda a depression really!
Its freakin cold here boys!!!!!
I have one 30BR, i have one hunting rifle, I have one f-class rifle, one ppc, and ,one im selling, and i want one 600 yard gun. Thats all i have. That doest seem out of line to me? I just want to make sure i do the 600 yard rifle right so there are no questions in my subconscious. Thanks for your help i really appreciate it. Lee
Its freakin cold here boys!!!!!
I have one 30BR, i have one hunting rifle, I have one f-class rifle, one ppc, and ,one im selling, and i want one 600 yard gun. Thats all i have. That doest seem out of line to me? I just want to make sure i do the 600 yard rifle right so there are no questions in my subconscious. Thanks for your help i really appreciate it. Lee
Lee,
I think we all get caught up in tolerance this and tolerance that but at the end of the day, it's the shooter that makes a difference. When you start talking 600 yards, it's about reading wind, flags, mirage, etc. and how to compensate. Therefore, know your equipment and practice with it. You have some great equipment...Now it's time to put it to work in honing your skills.
You can put money towards great gear but money won't buy application of gear.
I think we all get caught up in tolerance this and tolerance that but at the end of the day, it's the shooter that makes a difference. When you start talking 600 yards, it's about reading wind, flags, mirage, etc. and how to compensate. Therefore, know your equipment and practice with it. You have some great equipment...Now it's time to put it to work in honing your skills.
You can put money towards great gear but money won't buy application of gear.
Lee,
One thing about actions.....tolerances will not tell you how they will shoot or what there potiential will be....that's just the way it is. The most important thing (in my opinion) is to have a very competant gunsmith go through the action and check it out. The best shooting action (and smoothest) I ever had was a sleeved 700 that Dan Dowling worked over. I'm still trying to find that action to buy it back.
I've PM'd you on my thoughts about actions. You have my permission to send the PM's to other BR gunsmiths and see what they think about what I said. I'll bet you 99% agree with me in general.
Keep it simple and keep your gunsmith as a good friend.
Hovis
One thing about actions.....tolerances will not tell you how they will shoot or what there potiential will be....that's just the way it is. The most important thing (in my opinion) is to have a very competant gunsmith go through the action and check it out. The best shooting action (and smoothest) I ever had was a sleeved 700 that Dan Dowling worked over. I'm still trying to find that action to buy it back.
I've PM'd you on my thoughts about actions. You have my permission to send the PM's to other BR gunsmiths and see what they think about what I said. I'll bet you 99% agree with me in general.
Keep it simple and keep your gunsmith as a good friend.
Hovis
T
therifler
Guest
lee's troubles
lee , have been reading your post have read what the others have been saying . Hal makes a very good point you can not suppose or form an opinion based on what other shooters think . Unless you just want to read the posts . Take that 6.5X47 with the Bat action load some powder and a good tip and you are ready to compete at 600yds. If the gun was built right and you are up to the task it will compete quite well with anything out there .
lee , have been reading your post have read what the others have been saying . Hal makes a very good point you can not suppose or form an opinion based on what other shooters think . Unless you just want to read the posts . Take that 6.5X47 with the Bat action load some powder and a good tip and you are ready to compete at 600yds. If the gun was built right and you are up to the task it will compete quite well with anything out there .
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Thanks feas for the relies. I think sometimes i try to over think these situations. I have a terrible case of cabin fever, and need some range time. The another thing thats always on my mind is money!! Its going to cost right at 300 bucks to have tom inlet and bed what ever action i choose. I cant afford to make mistakes or at least i need to feel confident in my choices. I just want one really nice 600 yard rifle. I have one really nice 30BR one really nice 6ppc, one really nice hunting rifle , and one nice f-class rifle. I dont know were i will fall as far as what discipline i will enjoy the most. My plan is to shoot everything i can that the ST Louis club has to offer this year. I would think after the coming year i will know what discipline i will focus on. I really enjoy score, and i look forward to shooting the game this year. I also plan on learning the game on point blank benchrest. I have a good friend that plays and i have meet a few very nice gentlemen here that also play the short game. The long range stuff has my interest at the moment i must admit. It just seems a bit more appealing to me, that may change?? Like i said i want ONE nice 600 yard rifle, so i am trying to do my homework. I hate to bug you fellas, but i love reading your thoughts. I just want to be confident with my choice! It looks like the weather is going to warm up a bit this coming weekend and my dear old mom is watching the girls so i am going shooting. I havent been able to shoot in well over a month! I work for the city and between mater main brakes and snow plows, and my wife working every weekend, my mind is a bit of a mess!! LOL!!! I certainly hope i havent worn out my welcome here. Thanks again!!!!! Lee Gardner
Mike Bryant
Active member
There are plenty of rifles built on Remington actions whether 700's or 40X's that are being shot in 600 yard benchrest that are competitive. Any of the custom actions whether your Bat SV, Stiller, Stolle or whoever's custom action will be a better action than a factory Remington action. IMO, bolt clearance in a new custom action is a non issue. They are all close enough that they will shoot well. If you are concerned about firing pin fall on your SV, contact Dwight Scott, he has a tungsten weight and a heavier spring that he can add to the firing pin to give it a more solid firing pin fall.
However, there's only one way to tell if your rifle is going to shoot and that's to work up a load for it and shoot it. Right now if you're colder than we are here or were at least last week, you may want to wait until it warms up a little to see what it will do.
However, there's only one way to tell if your rifle is going to shoot and that's to work up a load for it and shoot it. Right now if you're colder than we are here or were at least last week, you may want to wait until it warms up a little to see what it will do.
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