head space and bumping shoulders - further question

If a bump guage is made correctly with the same reamer that was used on the barrel and made with the same care, it will tell you
many things. It will initially tell where the bullet meets the lands. If you have been successful with your neck turning, meaning you actually have clearance. It can tell you if the dies your using actually have the same shoulder angle. It can tell you if your cases are to long.
Used with a surface plate and something like a best test, you can actually see that bullets are in the lands, but have left no mark.
After quite a few rounds, you can also use it to see that patches passing thru the neck/shoulder junction have changed the radius
in a chamber. Some make these guages where the shoulder is recessed in the guage, this is a big problem, things collect there , like
grit and lint, giving strange numbers. The shoulder area of the guage should be no more than 90-95% the dia of the fired case.
 
Max,
I've taken a .010 or less cut off the bottom of the die with a carbide insert; cuts like a knife through butter. I've used this method to get my dies to size the very bottom of the case when bottoming out the shell holder was not enough. I then used shims to get to where I need to be. This has served me well with custom barrels in varmint rifles, not benchrest.
 
chino69
Thanks Ive had a lot of trouble sizing the case enough and setting the shoulder back . I cant get any of the gunsmiths to do the work . Max
 
Wanted to update this thread as I finally got around to getting the issue resolved...mostly. I ended up getting a Harrell's die that didn't size the body of the case well enough which gave me a big click at the top of extraction. It did, however, allow me to bump only 0.001 and the shoulder/body jcn was sized minimally to where the calipers would drop down 1/8" after taking a measurement from a fired case and locking in the diameter (I am sure that there is a better way to explain this).
The good folks at Harrell's told me to send the die back if I had any issues and so I took them up on their offer and they sent me a B2 labeled die that is working very well. shoulder bump is held to a minimum of a about 0.001, the shoulder/body jcn is sized minimally and I do not get the click at the top of extraction at all.
I have not noticed a significant difference in accuracy and my previous brass had been fired many times (over 30) without incident despite being bumped .002-0.0025 so I am not sure what has been "cured" if anything in this case (no punn intended). Perhaps over the course of the season or the life of the brass I will notice a difference.
Time will tell, but it is nice to know that my brass is being worked less and that I am maximizing my accuracy potential?
Mike
 
you need to get a 2.5 or 3 harrells die and that will cure your problems, the brass will shoot without clicking. The 2.5 or 3 die sizes the web area of the brass by 2.5 or 3 thousands more than the standard die. Brass too big in the web is what causes clicking. The 2 die may cure the problem for good, if it comes back after more firings you will need the 2.5 or 3, most people just get the 3 to start with. I personally use the 2.5 and have never had a problem.
 
Thanks, Steve. I will see how long it takes for these cases to start clicking. I am taking them to the range this weekend for their second round of firing and hopefully not have any issues. I have my initial die as a backup in case things start clicking again.
 
Boyd Allen said:
I would rather modify a shell holder, because this leaves the die sizing the maximum length of case body. Down at the bottom, just above the extractor groove, can be a critical area for sizing. By leaving the die alone, you preserve that at its maximum reach down the case. shell holders are soft. A friend cut one back a little on his lathe. He trued up the tips of the jaws on his three jaw, and then chucked it so that the surface that touches the top of the ram was against them. Just a light cut, and he was done.
Click to expand...

For those who want to modify the shellholder but don't have a ready set of doing so..... Redding makes a Competition Shellholder Set which includes five different sized (different thickness) shellholders. I have a set for the .222 family and they work very well.
 
While the Redding Competition shell holders work well for your .222, what I was referring to is taking material off of the top of a standard shell holder, which is some cases is necessary to allow for bumping shoulders of work hardened brass, for very close chambers. The Redding Competition shell holders include one that is stock and the others increase in height in increments of .002. They are useful in situations where the die would not make contact with a standard shell holder, to provide contact that results in more uniform shoulder bumping.
 
Boyd

Thank you for explaining more fully than I did useful situations. Actually there are five shellholders in the set that vary by .002. Each differs from the standard Redding shellholder for which a slot is provided in the shellholder box. My set is the #10 for the .222 family. I use one of them for shoulder bumping for my .223. I found height .002 size works for my Remington 5R chamber. It bumps the shoulder .001 according to my Digital Headspace Gauge by Innovative Technologies (Larry Willis, who is a member of this forum).

Jerry
 
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Correct me if I'am wrong! The Redding Compitition Shell Holders are a + size and one standard. When used, they will move the case "away' (down) from it's normal shoulder position because of the thickness of the shell holder? Just the opposite of what you want to do? You want to be able to run the case up into the die a little more to bump the shoulder? Or, modify the die so you can do the same thing?

Take a standard shell holder, chuck it up in a drill press and run it down onto a well oiled sharpening stone. Doesn't take much to remove as much or as little as you want to move the case "up" into the die allowing you to bump the shoulder just a little more. Make a couple with different amounts of surface material removed. Measure before and after so you'll know how much to take off.
 
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N C Mikie

You are 100% correct on the + size. I have been down this path and I ended up cutting the shell holder.

Craig
 
Nor Cal Mikie said:
Correct me if I'am wrong! The Redding Compitition Shell Holders are a + size and one standard. When used, they will move the case "away' (down) from it's normal shoulder position because of the thickness of the shell holder? Just the opposite of what you want to do? You want to be able to run the case up into the die a little more to bump the shoulder? Or, modify the die so you can do the same thing?

Take a standard shell holder, chuck it up in a drill press and run it down onto a well oiled sharpening stone. Doesn't take much to remove as much or as little as you want to move the case "up" into the die allowing you to bump the shoulder just a little more. Make a couple with different amounts of surface material removed. Measure before and after so you'll know how much to take off.
Click to expand...

Before you trim the shell holder buy another one and have it in hand. This is a good fix but often the amount removed is enough to cause the case to pull out of the weakened shell holder. The right way is to have a die that will make the cases fit from chamber to chamber. It's completely unnecessary to have a perfect fit from barrel to barrel. Likely, the better accuracy with less bump was achieved because of better conditions - that's a guess of course.
 
To measure bump back, it works better if I use a chamber gage with a .269 neck for a chamber with a .262 neck than using a chamber gage that was made with the reamer. I've had chambers with both neck diameters so have both diameter chamber gages. Probably is because the bushing doesn't size all the way to the base of the neck. The little extra clearance gives a better more consistent reading when I set up my dies for bump back. Have always used a chamber gage to measure bump back and haven't tried using the little brass button that Harrell sends out with his dies. It would probably work just as well. Having the correct die to chamber fit is the key to having a rifle that will work smoothly. I've been using a Redding type s small base die combined with a finish reamer that measures .439" at the .200 datum line. That combination seems to work well. That die sized the normal .441" at the.200 datum line reamer's brass too much.
 
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