HBR Edge progress:

Pete Wass

Pete Wass

Well-known member
I have been trying to eliminate all possible causation for the Horizontal groups I have been getting. I am now on the third scope and have changed out the trigger, polished the Firing Pin, changed the spring and inspected the bedding at last 13 times.

I found the Sako extractor was a bit too proud and touching the barrel cone so I trimmed it back. Shot a different powder-bullet combo today and still a 1.750" horizontal group. Changed the scope again to a Leup 6X HBR scope and got all three bulelts inide .750 with two in a big ragged hole; progress. Shot around a Score target and had 3 Pinwheels with two 8's, the shots that made the groups .750.

My Gunsmth happened to call yesterday and I told him what I was experiencing. He opined there was something the rifle didn't like. He called back today and said that the situation sounded to him like a bad bullet/powder combination. He also said the powder could have somehow gone bad. He also went on to say that he had spoken with a "Knowledgable" person recently who mentioned that 118's and bigger were "marginal for the 17 and 18 twist barrels.

I am loath to do it because they are so "Dear" but I will test with 112's tomorrow to see if the combo is the problem. The rifle appears to be ok, with a reliable scope, that is. The 2 and one group may be cured by a seating depth tweek but Why mess with it, when having the new knowledge on twist rates. I think there may be a 1-15 in my life once again.
 
Last edited:
Pete,

It might be worth checking out the front rest and rear bag, maybe bench technique too. (moving rear bag with shoulder/upper arm?) I used to use a spring loaded windage top on my front rest (unsuccessfully), as soon as I switched to a coaxial rest my horizontal issues disappeared.
 
Pete, have you checked the bedding with a dial indicator? I've seen a couple instances where a loose pillar caused shots to spit out the side. -Al
 
Pete, I'd start with the basics. If your action has bases, make sure that the front base screw isn't tight against the barrel tenon. I had a 700 come in that wouldn't shoot that I had barreled. Found that the front base screws had been switched and that the front screw was tight against the barrel tenon but wasn't tightening up against the base. Switched the screws and solved that problem. Also make sure that the screw above the bolt nose isn't too long as you don't want it hitting the bolt lug when the bolt is closed. This particular rifle was in a bedding block stock and had app. .0025" of movement between the barrel and forend. I roughed up the bedding block and skim coat bedded the rifle and wound up with a bedding job that had about .0005" of movement between the barrel and forend. The rifle went from shooting well over 1" groups to shooting under .3". I'd suggest loosening off the rear screw of the front base and see if you can move the base on top of the action as the first place to start. Another place to look is to make sure that your guard screws have clearance around the screws and aren't hitting inside the stock. 5/16" holes with 1/4" screws work well for this. If you have a ADL type escutcheon just drill down to the top of the escutcheon from inside the bedding area of the stock. I've seen stocks come in with the bedding threaded around the action screws, this won't work. There are lots of minor little things that are pretty easy to check that will make a rifle not shoot. Had one the other day that when I put the rifle together after having it black t coated that the bedding didn't check out well. Found all that it was the rear trigger pin hadn't been driven in far enough and was hitting the aluminum bedding block in the stock. Relieving under the pin or driving the pin in a little farther would solve that problem.
 
Mike Bryant said:
Pete, I'd start with the basics. If your action has bases, make sure that the front base screw isn't tight against the barrel tenon. I had a 700 come in that wouldn't shoot that I had barreled. Found that the front base screws had been switched and that the front screw was tight against the barrel tenon but wasn't tightening up against the base. Switched the screws and solved that problem. Also make sure that the screw above the bolt nose isn't too long as you don't want it hitting the bolt lug when the bolt is closed. This particular rifle was in a bedding block stock and had app. .0025" of movement between the barrel and forend. I roughed up the bedding block and skim coat bedded the rifle and wound up with a bedding job that had about .0005" of movement between the barrel and forend. The rifle went from shooting well over 1" groups to shooting under .3". I'd suggest loosening off the rear screw of the front base and see if you can move the base on top of the action as the first place to start. Another place to look is to make sure that your guard screws have clearance around the screws and aren't hitting inside the stock. 5/16" holes with 1/4" screws work well for this. If you have a ADL type escutcheon just drill down to the top of the escutcheon from inside the bedding area of the stock. I've seen stocks come in with the bedding threaded around the action screws, this won't work. There are lots of minor little things that are pretty easy to check that will make a rifle not shoot. Had one the other day that when I put the rifle together after having it black t coated that the bedding didn't check out well. Found all that it was the rear trigger pin hadn't been driven in far enough and was hitting the aluminum bedding block in the stock. Relieving under the pin or driving the pin in a little farther would solve that problem.
Click to expand...

Hi Mike,

Thank you for your response. I had this rifle built 5 or so years ago and it has been a very competative rifle until recently. It is a Kodiak in a McMillin Edge stock. It was built by one of the best RBR Smith in the US. I know I will eventually find the problem. I am going to trim the action screws a bit tonight to see if they may be bottoming out.

I once bought a rifle that had similar problems and believed I could find the problem and fix it. I didn't and couldn't. This is the first Custom Rifle I have had made that suddenly stopped working. I actually find this interesting but I would like to get it to shoot before the up-comming 100-200 Nationals. :) Of course, I sold two other HBR rifles last year that are still winning, and one of them "Big Time".
 
Last edited:
It may just be that the barrel has quit or recrowning it might bring it back. It's one thing when they quit shooting and another when they don't from the start.
 
My Gunsmth happened to call yesterday and I told him what I was experiencing. He opined there was something the rifle didn't like. He called back today and said that the situation sounded to him like a bad bullet/powder combination. He also said the powder could have somehow gone bad. He also went on to say that he had spoken with a "Knowledgable" person recently who mentioned that 118's and bigger were "marginal for the 17 and 18 twist barrels.
Click to expand...
Well, of course it is jacket length, not bullet weight, but I've never found the 118s on a 1.00 jacket to be "marginal" in a 18-twist barrel. There is a barrel maker kind of known for being optimistic on their twist rate, but as Mike Bryant says, its an entirely different situation when a rifle suddenly quits. No need to revisit the barrel's twist rate.

I also don't like the diagnosis that a bad performer, where the groups are always horizontal, is the result of an unfavorable powder/bullet choice. And shot out barrels don't favor horizontal spreads, either, in my opinion. Best guess is something is moving or touching. Have you had the trigger out recently?
 
I know of several people using slower twist than 18's and are not having a problem. This has to be something loose or binding to shoot that bad.
 
I replaced the trigger two days ago with a new spare and there was no change. It remains a mystery. I am taking a day off from it. I have never noticed any difference between 1" and the shorter jackets over the years in a goodly number of barrels. I guess when one is stumped, the obscure comes forward. I guess I should let someone else have a look at it
 
Pete, you never answered if you've checked the bedding. :confused:

Anyway....the Kodiaks don't have much thread purchase on the blind rear action screw hole. The bedding can shift a bit and it will seem tight when you snug the screws down. Make darn sure the rear screw isn't bottoming out in the hole. Jim Minnig had one that did this a fews seasons back....I 'fixed' it at the match by slipping a thin machine washer between the trigger guard and the pillar.

My Kodiak and Panda have been modified so the rear screw hole is completely through for max. thread purchase. Kodiak shown here:

k1.jpg


For what it's worth........... -Al
 
AL, that sounds like a very good possibility. I can't even remember how many black powder guns I've fixed for people with bottomed out screws that all of a sudden won't shoot anymore!
 
Hi Al, I have checked that and smudged up the front screw to see if it was bottoming out. I didn't do it to the rear one but will directly. As I recall, you found that situation with one of Bob Beyer's rifle a few years ago. It shot after you "fixed" it. Off I go to check.
 
WELLLLLLLL - - - - -

I believe we may have hit Pay Dirt here. look to me like bof of them were hitting. I ground them back about 15 thou or so. Now when torquing, they don't come to an abrupt stop ( Clue, eh?) I will try er tomorra to see.

It's amazing how lazy a person's brain can get with time, eh?
 
David Halblom said:
I would say they bottomed because the pillars (you do have pillars Peter?) are soft and the bedding is wearing out.

IMHO

David
Click to expand...

I have heard said that epoxie bedding material shrinks up to .015 over time. Perhaps mine has shrunk more than that. The pillars in my stocks are covered by the bedding; all of those I have had to date have been. I think it highly unlikely the pillars have worn or been bent.
 
j.higdon said:
Now, Pete, The ???? is why did they start to bottom out.
Click to expand...

Hello Jerold,

I have tried to email you several times without success. How you are?

I am now thinking that the bedding material shrunk over time. I have observed several glued in rifles that came lose in their bedding. I think basically caused by the plastic shrinking, allowing the action to pop out.

Be it hot by you?
 
For there is no Joy in Mudville - - - -

I got up early and prepared to go to the range. I decided to take a wee bit more off the screws so did that and torques then back not once byt twiate! Got all set up at the range and shot a warmup shot. I then shot two more at that target above, both going into the same hole, DANG, I thought, we home! My euphoria quickly subsided after I relased the pin on the second primer. About 1" right, dead horizontal!

I then clicked in a zero from the first two shots and went around a HBR Score target. All but one shot went either 1" to the right or 1" to the left and one went right Down Town.

Barrel change before I go back to the range but I doubt that will make any difference.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top