Having trouble accurizing a 541-S... What am I missing here ?

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pazsint

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I have 2 NIB or near new Rem 541-s factory originals. I only want keep shooting one and sell the other. They are both known to shoot very well, but are not consistent. My goal is to pick one to shoot say 1/2" groups at 100 yards, BUT not glass bed, pillar, nor add the 2nd screw or modify rifle in any permanent way other than the adjust the trigger...at least NOT UNTIL I decide on the one I'll keep, so the other can be sold as factory. Neither rifle had a barrel pressure pad in the stock near the tip, and both actions are quite sloppy in the stock and both barrels tend to touch the stock on one side or the other.

So far I've had little lasting success using shims cut from plastic lids like margerine tubs and pringle cans. I'm using a Leupold 24 x scope, sand bags, target type ammos, and shoot only with very little wind. Many times I've had 3 or 4 shots in a row group at 3/8" or less only to have next several shots scatter and enlarge group up to 2". Once I fired 3 shots in 0.167", then the next day it wouldn't even cut an inch. I've been shimming the action at the receiver and just ahead of the trigger. I've found that additional thinner plastic also placed on one side of the action removed more slop, and lined up barrel in channel so as not to touch sides. I've been using a 3/8" square pad under the barrel near the forearm tip, although I've also tried this shim at several different points along the barrel all the way back to the receiver usually with out success. I tighten the single action screw firmly where it will go in without any bind.

?? SO..> What am I missing here ? Are these plastics not stable and do they squirm or squash and allow bedding to change ? Am I not putting the right size under barrel ? How do you determine what thickness to make the barrel shim ? Should the barrel get much upward pressure ? Should this barrel shim be hard or soft ? What have you used that worked in this situation ? Is there another way to pin down action with glass bedding ? At this point any ideas are appreciated.

Dan
 
Would like to be of help. However you have already ruled out the things that would improve the situation
 
The most critical thing to shooting good groups at 100 yds is good windflags and a lot of patience.

Next is top shelf ammo that you have lot tested in your gun.

Then bbl, chamber, ign. etc.

Then bedding.

Then luck I have some very good BR rifles and we do shoot a target at 100 yds at our club. You might see a 1/2" group once or twice a year. The 10 ring is 1" in dia and no body has ever shot five 5 shot groups that stayed in the 10 ring.
 
I have a 541 that came alive when I epoxied the factory barrel to the receiver. Sort of by inadvertence, but that doesn't change the result. When I took it apart to recut the crown, I just put it back together with the pin, and it didn't shoot anywhere near as well.

So: worth trying. Pull the pin, coat the barrel with loc-tit or a light epoxy, reassemble (& maybe leave out the pin?). Give it a try. If you wind up selling it, heat it up, pull the barrel, clean off the epoxy (toluene) & put it back together with just the pin.

FWIW

Edit:

here is a link that includes this. See step 4. Not how I did it, but...

http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/22lrfit.htm
 
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To the OP, shimming the barrel for up pressure will not get you far as the the natural swelling / shrinking of the wood stock will negate your effort. You have ruled out the primary thing that likely would create the most improvement, that is proper bedding of the receiver. In the past some of these stocks had a very nasty tendency to walk around with the variation of ambient humidity. Most notably in the receiver area. The cure was to drill holes through out the action area, breaking up the grain structure and back fill with epoxy and then a proper bedding job. Essentially a multi-pillar bedding job. This stabilized the stock.

I had one that would walk so far that it would freeze the bolt in the action. After the above actions were taken there is never more than a couple clicks adj. needed on the sights from one session to the next.

IIRC, Another thing here is the 541s is just a hair more refined than a 580. Not near what the original 540S was/is.
 
getting close to winning...

I'm closer now to stabilizing the 541-S action, off and on getting 3-4 shots less than 0.5" then POI moves. I've changed scopes and mounts for a more optically centered pair, and relieved wood at action screw, and re-tightened stock after 10 shots...today absolutely no wind, shot two 0.35" groups then impact shifted, then came back after 3 shots away.
Concerns yet and questions for you....>
#1 I'm using an 0.050"thick tire rubber patch across barrel channel just short of forearm tip as a pressure pad...rifle likes some upward pressure but not a lot...do you think this rubber pad is squirming or too thick or too soft causing the different impacts ? what material would be better for a up pressure pad ? how thick ?
#2 Or do you think the POI shift is still in my action bed, not tight enough and /or the taped channel is still subsiding and shifting ?
 
Dan,
I've owned the 540XR, 580, & 582, I don't currently own any, but still like the rifles a bunch.
I've cleaned up and tested four CMP 540X prone rifles my club purchased for youth programs. A really cool discontinued action!
Inconsistencies came from the aforementioned way the action sits in the stock, lack of/placement of action screws, the plastic "taper" section that sort of contains the rear sight, the loose, slip fit barrel, heavy triggers which can cause the action to shift in the stock during firing, relatively thin actions which can be twisted/bent when bedding with shims, lugs which do not engage equally, the list goes on and on. Furthermore, I've not seen your bench technique, but rest placement, as well as hold tension, can ave an incredible impact on group size and consistency.
IMPO, what you want might be attainable if the barrels slug well, but you have to make a decision on ONE gun, and then modify it to suit your needs. Till then I'm a big fan of electrical tape (PVC?) as a temporary bedding, while it will crush just a bit, I've won sport weight matches with actions tweeked this way to keep the barrel centered in the channel, or to "float" the magazine housing area.
I'm a wood lover, so whichever one has the best stock would be my keeper, then I'd just piddle with it till it performed (or someone else fired it and HAD to have it)!
Take care,
warren
 
warren,

Gonna hijack the thread for just a minute. I've had similar experiences with the 540, and solved most (but not within the restrictions given by the OP), except the unevenly bearing lugs.

What did you do, lap? Just live with them? Interested in your thoughts.
 
Sorry for the late reply.
I just lived with it as I lack ready access to shop equipment to modify a barrel should I change headspace excessively.
IIRC it was Brian Voelker who drew my attention to the lug issue while answering my query on converting a 582 to a single-shot light match rifle (a project I gave up on and subsequently sold the rifle to a prospective CMP Rimfire Sporter Rifle competitor).
I've even heard of some converting this action to centerfire for the hornet round, such is the apparent strength of the action.
Take care,
warren
 
FINAL REPORT>>>Why I failed to get sticky tape to work as bedding...

I failed in this attempt to stabilize my round Remington 541 action using aluminum tape layering. Admittedly it seemed plausible, but even another user at RimfireCentral.com (Vincent) warned me several times it may not work for every application...and now I see if fact why it won't work for most situations. I think he was lucky to get it to perform in his rifle, and it did help me a little initially, but then got steadily worse. Now here's why the use of sticky backed tape layers won't help you with good action bedding...>

The aluminum tape off a new roll measured 0.0068", the paper backing has a 0.0032" thickness, and the actual aluminum layer is only 0.0011" thick, so the glue on the tape is about 0.0025" thick, which means 70% of what your applying is soft tacky squishy glue ! Sure you can push it in hard, burnish or iron it down, but the remaining entrapped glue will become the point of failure since the majority of that soft oozing glue is still in your bedding...now how can any movement stabilize an action ? I refused to give up shooting over 500 rounds, until I realized the hard way why my POI and group size kept changing. It's because with time, or heat, or the vibration of shooting the soft glue in my bedding kept oozing and shifting... often only allowing 2-3 good shots in a row before moving. My stock was pretty sloppy and the more layers of tape I applied, the tighter the bedding 'seemed' to get, but then the poorer the groups got. In the end I measured that I'd applied in the worst area about 15 layers, and sure it seemed tight when inserting the action, but I estimate I had yet as much as 0.025" of entrapped glue. I could easily squeeze a .012" change with my calipers, so no way is 0.012" of possible movement on each side of an action good for accuracy.
In the beginning I was only after a method of tightening my action in its wooden stock without modifying the factory original. Now that I know my barreled action will really shoot, I will take the proper and permanent steps to accuracy via pillars and epoxy bedding, and put in the second action screw in the case of a Rem 541.
At best any improvement to be gained using tape will be short lived.
So if you want to test an action, or use any temporary fix without modifying the factory stock, I have but one suggestion I believe may work...try the Plasti Dip product suggested above by 'forrest' at post # 29 in this thread http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=510947&page=2.
And remember it too is only a temporary solution.
 
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