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- Thread starter Frankr
- Start date
I mean i think if there was any truth to this all barrel makers would offer it as a added service to every barrel?
http://www.cryoplus.com/gunbarrels.html
http://www.cryoplus.com/gunbarrels.html
D
Damon
Guest
I looked into this about 10 years ago. The only credible info I could find indicated that certain tooling had decreased wear when machining certain types of cryo treated steel. I never could make the jump from that to anything related to shooting.
can you spell......hYPe!!????
Several very high-end barrel makers offer it.
Several very high-end barrel makers just DO it as a matter of course.
Most high-end makers ignore it in favor of making high quality products......
Generally, among the machining trades it is agreed that some will believe that maybe cryoing the barrel (claimed to do the whole austenitic/marsensitic conversion thing) gives it better machining properties.
Gener'ly among the easily swayed rednekkid populace it is agreed that "you support what ya' drive" so if you spent the money...... "IT WORKED!"
These are my opinions
al
Several very high-end barrel makers offer it.
Several very high-end barrel makers just DO it as a matter of course.
Most high-end makers ignore it in favor of making high quality products......
Generally, among the machining trades it is agreed that some will believe that maybe cryoing the barrel (claimed to do the whole austenitic/marsensitic conversion thing) gives it better machining properties.
Gener'ly among the easily swayed rednekkid populace it is agreed that "you support what ya' drive" so if you spent the money...... "IT WORKED!"
These are my opinions
al
brian roberts
New member
A very good site is........
Here: http://www.metal-wear.com/Brake Wear on Komatsu.html
These photos exhibit the difference of extreme heat and friction on rotors that have and have not been treated using the vacuum-insulated process. Similar to, but not as severe as the same forces in gun barrels.
There is to be a "scientific" paper presented near the end of the year that looks at temperature gradients, and the differences between UN-treated barrels vs. the same barrels treated using the vacuum-insulated method.
There may also be a significant positive change in the effect of Meloniting after a proper, i.e. vacuum-insulated, process.
I don't know of any barrelmakers that are using the V-I process, consequently, the results they are claiming are somewhat suspect, since there is photographic evidence that by varying the dwell at temperature, there may be even greater wear resistance available as a result. The problem is, most "treaters" out there, not employing the V-I processor, cannot economically maintain the necessary temperature for the required time, that is the main obstacle to a successful process; Plus, they, and many others, believe they perform "Cryogenic Processing", when in fact, they are only providing a significant cold treatment, but never entering the super-cold regions, defined as -244F, and below. The vacuum-insulated machines have successfully been used w/liquid Helium at -450F, which is what NASA specifies on numerous assemblies they've had done, so, a successful treatment w/liquid Nitrogen is easily accomplished. Cryogenic processing is not all the same, obviously; but, most people believe it is. You don't go to Baskin-Robbins or Ben and Jerry's and ask for "Ice Cream" do you?? Well, you cannot achieve super-cold "Cryogenic Processing" using refrigeration technology and insulation, and an abbreviated process (duration) either.
The really puzzling thing about asking that question here is, that numerous people have been offered the opportunity to try the V-I process for themselves, just for the cost of shipping, but have declined the offer, relying only on hearsay, and findings/opinions of users of equipment that cannot POSSIBLY produce the results desired.
Here's another site: http://www.precisionriflesales.com/ Ray Bowman states that the V-I process has exhibited to him, via a borescope, that he can cut a more exacting chamber, and he doesn't offer to chamber a barrel without this treatment being performed first.
Most good barrelmakers can sell more than they can possibly produce, so where is the incentive to lay out additional significant cash, when its unnecessary? A barrelmaker will always tell you it doesn't make barrels last longer, they really don't want that barrel to last longer; why?? They sell barrels!! They could use a Mil-Spec alloy, but their cutters and buttons wouldn't last as long.
As far as bulletmakers and ballistic labs associated with them are concerned, well, they have a lot of work to get out and are on a very tight schedule, consequently they fire rounds quicker and for longer than a target shooter or any hunter would. So, any barrel will wear faster under conditions of sustained, or automatic, fire.
I hope this explanation has given you a better understanding of some of the nuances of the process, that can lead to misconceptions that, at first glance, aren't readily considered.
Here: http://www.metal-wear.com/Brake Wear on Komatsu.html
These photos exhibit the difference of extreme heat and friction on rotors that have and have not been treated using the vacuum-insulated process. Similar to, but not as severe as the same forces in gun barrels.
There is to be a "scientific" paper presented near the end of the year that looks at temperature gradients, and the differences between UN-treated barrels vs. the same barrels treated using the vacuum-insulated method.
There may also be a significant positive change in the effect of Meloniting after a proper, i.e. vacuum-insulated, process.
I don't know of any barrelmakers that are using the V-I process, consequently, the results they are claiming are somewhat suspect, since there is photographic evidence that by varying the dwell at temperature, there may be even greater wear resistance available as a result. The problem is, most "treaters" out there, not employing the V-I processor, cannot economically maintain the necessary temperature for the required time, that is the main obstacle to a successful process; Plus, they, and many others, believe they perform "Cryogenic Processing", when in fact, they are only providing a significant cold treatment, but never entering the super-cold regions, defined as -244F, and below. The vacuum-insulated machines have successfully been used w/liquid Helium at -450F, which is what NASA specifies on numerous assemblies they've had done, so, a successful treatment w/liquid Nitrogen is easily accomplished. Cryogenic processing is not all the same, obviously; but, most people believe it is. You don't go to Baskin-Robbins or Ben and Jerry's and ask for "Ice Cream" do you?? Well, you cannot achieve super-cold "Cryogenic Processing" using refrigeration technology and insulation, and an abbreviated process (duration) either.
The really puzzling thing about asking that question here is, that numerous people have been offered the opportunity to try the V-I process for themselves, just for the cost of shipping, but have declined the offer, relying only on hearsay, and findings/opinions of users of equipment that cannot POSSIBLY produce the results desired.
Here's another site: http://www.precisionriflesales.com/ Ray Bowman states that the V-I process has exhibited to him, via a borescope, that he can cut a more exacting chamber, and he doesn't offer to chamber a barrel without this treatment being performed first.
Most good barrelmakers can sell more than they can possibly produce, so where is the incentive to lay out additional significant cash, when its unnecessary? A barrelmaker will always tell you it doesn't make barrels last longer, they really don't want that barrel to last longer; why?? They sell barrels!! They could use a Mil-Spec alloy, but their cutters and buttons wouldn't last as long.
As far as bulletmakers and ballistic labs associated with them are concerned, well, they have a lot of work to get out and are on a very tight schedule, consequently they fire rounds quicker and for longer than a target shooter or any hunter would. So, any barrel will wear faster under conditions of sustained, or automatic, fire.
I hope this explanation has given you a better understanding of some of the nuances of the process, that can lead to misconceptions that, at first glance, aren't readily considered.
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JerrySharrett
Senile Member
If you bought one of the top brands of benchrest barrels your barrel has already been cyro'ed, maybe twice. That is why having a barrel later treated after chambering may or may not improve longevity, but, if it was improperly stressed in chambering it may improve accuracy.
As to longevity, ask George Kelbly Sr. When sub-zero treatment first became popular George and Paul Gotshall took two pieces of the same rifled barrel stock and had one cyro'ed. Then they ran 500 rounds through each, as fast as they could load and shoot. The cryo'ed barrel showed much less erosion.
In the '70's we started having our HSS tooling, like drill bits and endmills cryo'ed. They showed much more ductility.
An example vendors site http://www.cryogenicsinternational.com/shooting.htm Keep in mind these folks are SELLING.
IMO, bottom line, you may or may not see improvement in an accuracy barrel depending on what happened to it in preparation for use. But, if you have a new good looking barrel and it just will not shoot, spend the $40-$50 and get it treated.
I would venture that many factory barrels could benefit by being cryo'ed.
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Butch Lambert
Active member
I had 2 barrels done with the V-1 cryo process. One barrel that was a wonderful barrel and had 100-200 rounds through it. The other barrel was unchambered. After chambering the second barrel they were shipped to Joel Kendrick,Mimi Trutec, for Melonite. Hopefully the 30Br will be shot tomorrow.
Butch
Butch
M
max.burgess
Guest
Butch Id like to hear how it turns out . Thanks Max
David Halblom
Flying Fish Fundamentals
For the most part here you are going to get empirical data.
That said, I had a HBR barrel that was a real problem child cryo'd. The barrel evidently had internal stresses in it, by the way it was acting. The result were nothing less than satisfying. It is now a stable, accurate barrel. Cryo will not neccessarily improve a good barrel, other than wear life, but it may damn well fix a problem child.
That said, I had a HBR barrel that was a real problem child cryo'd. The barrel evidently had internal stresses in it, by the way it was acting. The result were nothing less than satisfying. It is now a stable, accurate barrel. Cryo will not neccessarily improve a good barrel, other than wear life, but it may damn well fix a problem child.