Harrell Measure Techniques

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Lucky Shooter A

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I'd like to find out how much charge weight variation others are getting from the fine Harrell measures, using such powders as H322, Benchmark and N133----and what techniques seem to work well with these measures using such short-grained extruded powders.

I'm seeing most charges weigh out to inside +/- .1 gr but some do exceed this.

Will appreciate any help.

Thanks.

A. Weldy
 
Well I have 2 harrells and I find that they vary +/- .1-.3 when I first started using them I used the old method of lifting the handle and making 2 bunps at the top of the stoke and 2 at the bottom of the stroke ,but found that the charges were on th high side.2 to.3 but then one of my friends that use's a harrells showed me that lifting the handle gently and lowering it very slowly my charges became more consistent at .1 and ocassionally .2. So give the gentle method a try and I think you will be surprised how consistent these measures are.
 
Thank you Steelhead1

I set up and tried your method for 50 test charges-----60 Harrel clicks with N133.

My ES over 50 charges was .36 gr. To fabricate an ES of .2 gr---(+/- .1 gr), I'd have had to throw back 10 charges.

The badly out-of-range charges were on the extreme ends of the spread but there was no noticeable difference in feel----couldn't even begin to suspect which charges to throw back.

I've about decided my hat should be off to anyone who can maintain an ES of +/- .2 gr or less------over 50 charges thrown.

I'll try to develop more consistency. Thanks again.

A. Weldy
 
Harrell's recommends slow, smooth operation, no taps.

I agree. Based on thousands of throws weighed over the course of 15yrs, myself and others.

al
 
By strict attention to technique, I can make short runs (20 or so) that are very close to +-.1 with 133. My theory is that for larger numbers, thrown to obtain a "better" sample, that boredom causes lapses in attention and that this results in subtle variations that increase charge weight variation. I only load 133 at the range, in small batches, and my repeated tests with numbers of charges in that range look good, so I leave well enough alone. If I were preloading large numbers of rounds, I would pick a powder that would throw acceptably well, or buy a Chargemaster. If you check your PMs, you will see that I have sent you a couple of throw techniques that seem to work well. Of course charge weight varies considerably with technique, so you should verify what you are getting with a scale.
 
If I go slow and smooth the spread is +/- 0.1 most of the time. Over 50 or 100 charges some will be out as much as +/- 0.3 and one or two as much a .5. I have had some claim +/- 0.1 for a 100 throws. B.S. Last guy at our range that made that claim failed when I put a $100 bill bet on the table.

Three of us load at the range every Friday and most Saturdays. Being very careful we all see the same. +/- 0.1 most of the time but 10 to 20% of the throws are out 0.3 or more! We all throw heavy and then dump a few grains to get to precise weight.

By the way. With the 6 PPC if you barrel is in tune then +/-0.1 is as good as you need for short range BR. A 0.3 error is an open group some of the time. And a 0.5 error is out of the group most of the time.

Over the years I have had four different Harrells measures and all were about the same. The Redding BR measure is similar to equal in accuracy.

The Chargemaster works good but at the range we have found we can load just as precise using a measure and a good digital scale and dumping the overthrow. Loading time is about the same. In the shop I always load with the Chargemaster.
 
"By the way. With the 6 PPC if you barrel is in tune then +/-0.1 is as good as you need for short range BR. A 0.3 error is an open group some of the time. And a 0.5 error is out of the group most of the time."

Agreed..... I believe 0.2gr is an acceptable range of error.... My ppc's don't show ill effects.. Much less any other cartridge.
My technique is the same ... Slow steady with one light tap at the top of the stroke and a light tap at the bottom. With 133 I get 0.35gr ES typically... 8208 "family" I get less than +-.15gr ES but it's typically < +-0.10gr ES.

133 can cause fits in consitency... IMOP, if you "develop" a technique that get's ya < +-.3gr ES consistency with 133... Your OK in the short BR game.
cale
 
A lot of the accuracy derived from any powder measur depends on the accuracy of the scales the thrown charges are weighed on. I am now using an Acu Lab scale that weighs to 100 parts and I find that even my Chargemaster is not now accurate enough for me. I am back to throwing charges from my RCBS measure and trickeling by thumb and forefinger to the .00g. I like to see + .01g so that I am confident there is at least the base amount of powder I want to place in the case. I had rather live with +.01g than -.01g for some reaon unknown to me. :D :p

In thinking about this accuracy issue, what a person such as myself, is looking for is to make each loaded round as precise as I can make it. I don't believe anyone can argue successfully that any degree of inaccuracy falls under the classification of "Good Enough" when one is seeking absolute accuracy. Pick a group size, if that is "Good Enough" then whatever one is satisfied with in loading ammo is also "Good Enough". It is impossible to load ammo that is too good. One will never find perfection with a "Good Enough" attitude about what they are doing.
 
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Pete,

On a calm nice day I would agree with you. But with a little wind moving the wind becomes the control factor. Then the powder's exact weigh does not make so much difference on the target.

Also mostly I am shooting a 100 yards. At 300 and out the powder is more critical. Likely at 200 also.
 
Octopus said:
Pete,

On a calm nice day I would agree with you. But with a little wind moving the wind becomes the control factor. Then the powder's exact weigh does not make so much difference on the target.

Also mostly I am shooting a 100 yards. At 300 and out the powder is more critical. Likely at 200 also.
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John,

For the kind of shooting you and your "Gang" are doing, thrown charges are fine. For those who are looking to hit every dot and shoot zero groups, one will not consistently get it done with thrown charges, even @ 100 Yds, I don't believe.

There are three critical components to accurate loads, IMHO. 1. The proper, exact charge of powder for #2, the Bullet number one likes and 3, #2 seated exactly where the lands like to accept #2. Simple enugh, eh?


That said, the issue of tune in th Ambient comes into the mix. Tuners can and do allow one to make holes smaller BUT, they must be moved to keep #1, #2 and # 3 in sync, from my experience. Stealing a very cute expression; "Here is where the Booger falls into the Soup". How much of one's barrel, #1 and #2 dies one want to expend to find out where the tuner needs to be?
 
Pete,
Some move tuners, some don't. There is a fellow by the name of Buckys. Perhaps you have heard of him. Sets up his tuner one time, locks it down, and leaves it there, tuning, from that point "normally". He has had some small success with this approach. And while we are at it, many, if not most of the records were shot with thrown charges, including some recent ones. In the other hand, I can see no disadvantage to using a Chargemaster at the range, and for those who do not have the best measure technique, real advantages.
Boyd
 
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Most all of the Culver type measures use a screw to move the powder mechanism back and forth. If this screw develops a little slop in it from wear, the measure can become inconsistent. I have a Sinclair measure that I bought when they first came out that has developed a little wear in the brass nut/leade screw mechanism. I switched to a different measure and consistency improved. It probably took 20 years of use to develp the wear, probably in the brass nut. I'll rebuild the Sinclair measure when I have time and may even change to a 1/4-28 screw instead of the 1/4-20 screw that most Culver type measures use which should give a finer adjustment. It will probably mess up the click value, but that's really irrelevant. Most of the variation in powder weight is probably due to variation in the powder or the way it packs in the measure from throw to throw rather than in the measure.
 
Mike I had an idea for an insert for powder measures some years ago before my temporary gap in shooting.
I have been thinking a lot about it since I began shooting.
It has to do with a different kind of baffle. It sits above the actual measuring hole, with angled wholes that allow the powder from the bottle to feed down at angles from center to the outside edge of what would become the lower chamber and thereby greatly reduce any pressure from the powder above. Do you think this would work or help in the packing problem?
 
Boyd Allen said:
Pete,
Some move tuners, some don't. There is a fellow by the name of Buckys. Perhaps you have heard of him. Sets up his tuner one time, locks it down, and leaves it there, tuning, from that point "normally". He has had some small success with this approach. And while we are at it, many, if not most of the records were shot with thrown charges, including some recent ones. In the other hand, I can see no disadvantage to using a Chargemaster at the range, and for those who do not have the best measure technique, real advantages.
Boyd
Click to expand...

I will agree that tuning can be done in a number of ways and I will agree that one can tune their barrel with a tuner and then adjust loads. It seems to work well for some, apparently. I will also agree that I should not assue, because someone has written here that more and more of the Groups and winning aggs have been done with weighed charges. Second hand info will kill one every time one quotes it.

The other day a friend called me, very concerned that in a test he had done, thrown charges had better Crono numbers than weighed charges. How does one deal with that? I know, in my case, I suck real bad in getting any consistency in throwing charges. I suck so bad at it I went to weighing years ago.
 
Tuner use.

I thought the purpose of the tuner was so that when you found your tune with powder you were suppose to adjust the tuner to keep it in tune.
If you still have to play with your powder to keep it in tune what is the use of having a tuner? Maybe I should start a new thread....
 
Vern, from what I hear from guys shooting tuners at matches is that it gives them a larger load window with the rifle staying in tune better throughout the day. I haven't shot one enough to know and it's been too hot this summer to want to do much shooting to do any testing.
 
Me and Tuners

I only shoot 30 Cal cf rifles so I have no knowledge of what 6 PPC's do but with 30's, I have been able to tune barrels to loads I have decided I wanted to use and been able to make loads I like shoot well in most of the barrels I have had tuners installed on.

I have been a big proponent of Tuners from day one. I still use one on one of my rifles BUT I am about ready to walk away from them. It is my opinion that once one installs a tuner, to keep the rifle shooting at an optimum level in a wide Ambient swing, one must be moving the tuner. I have never been willing to put in the time to document how much to turn tuners or when; Lazy? Yes, Guilty.

I more of a mind these days to simply tune a barrel with a good load combination and take what the rifle will give me, realizing that if the ambient goes too far out of my tune area the rifle will not shoot as well. Usually when this occurs conditions are so rank that one would be hard pressed to shoot well if they are in tune. So, unless one has done the homework, they might as well just take what the barrel will give them.
 
The fellow who has currently doing the best of anyone who shoots a tuner on a 6PPC, says that they broaden the node. I have used one a little (yes, I know, big deal), and that was my experience as well. IMO it may well be that having some weight at the muzzle, with some sort of damping medium (rubber) is an advantage, even if one chooses to tune conventionally once the tuner has been optimized for a given barrel, load, and set of conditions. The idea that having a tuner requires its use as the primary method for staying in tune, as conditions change, may simply be incorrect.
 
Boyd Allen said:
The fellow who has currently doing the best of anyone who shoots a tuner on a 6PPC, says that they broaden the node. I have used one a little (yes, I know, big deal), and that was my experience as well. IMO it may well be that having some weight at the muzzle, with some sort of damping medium (rubber) is an advantage, even if one chooses to tune conventionally once the tuner has been optimized for a given barrel, load, and set of conditions. The idea that having a tuner requires its use as the primary method for staying in tune, as conditions change, may simply be incorrect.
Click to expand...

Unlike many 6PPC shooters and some 30 cal shooters I am in the camp of Pre-loaders. I have always been a pre-loader and , for the most part, I have done ok with it. This is why, if I were to need to tighten up the accuracy of the rifle, I would need to move the tuner.

Having said that, I have been shooting for fun for the past couple of years. After finally winning the Big Cup one year I decided, for me, there was no redeming value to what was necessary to get there. I backed off and decided to enjoy what I was doing instead of being frantic. I have enjoyed my life a lot more as a result of proceeding that way. I will be 67 in a few days and there is still a lot I want to exerience before I am no longer able to experience whatever it is. I am no longer Driven I guess I am trying to say. My ego isn't that big; never was.
 
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