Well don't think it will be a cake walk at 1000 you had better be able to shoot in the 2's and 3's with a light gun and the guys at 600 are shooting in the .3's now. It is easier where you are at, you have to be able to read the wind. No field of daisy wheels just range flags and mirage to guide you. The best part is you pre load , no time to do it let alone clean of corse if you decide to load there it would be a short day…….. jim
Well don't think it will be a cake walk at 1000 you had better be able to shoot in the 2's and 3's with a light gun and the guys at 600 are shooting in the .3's now. It is easier where you are at, you have to be able to read the wind. No field of daisy wheels just range flags and mirage to guide you. The best part is you pre load , no time to do it let alone clean of corse if you decide to load there it would be a short day…….. jim
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
No Tim, I think you have accomplished a lot this year.
Tim Singleton
Member
Appreciate that, Jerry
How many barrels did you go through before you got the real deal?
___________________
Wait...I understand what you're saying now. If you try the usual stuff and it doesn't work well....you didn't get the right barrel. Certainly there are exceptions but not many. I actually had one of those exceptions and found a winning load for it. Not a winning "load" but a fatter bullet - which I already had. That created a bit of short lived concern.
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JerrySharrett
Senile Member
.....and how many times, for a new shooter, did the first barrel shoot better than the next 8 or 10?
First it was the second barrel the first one was full of tool marks and they replaced it so on the action it was the first. This was the first short range glue in i did. All i'm saying is, If you don't try new or different things you will never know if something better is out there…… Don't sit on your hands, something just may work better. I can take loads from this year and take them out next year and they will still shoot small…… pre loaded? I had loaded rounds left over with the PPC and shot them two weeks latter and they shot in .040's ….. i guess the tune stayed the same. I checked the Harrells measure and it will not throw .1 with 8208 checked with a GD 503, so just maybe a good scale will get you smaller groups, i do know you will not shoot small groups with a powder measure without a scale at long range. I do know i can see group change at .05 in powder charge with a ragged old Dasher so what would a PPC do? ……… jim
Tim Singleton
Member
I don't know. It's hard to put into words and I know I can't.
When it's in Tune they will just go into the group. I can't explain it and don't really want to try.
But the powder charge being perfect shot to shot isn't what it is
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Boyd Allen
Active member
A little data point...all of the records that Gary Ocock has shot are with thrown charges. You might want to check them out. Aggregates are not happy accidents.
i'm just going to leave this here for a minute...
Boyd Allen
Active member
Seriously? Short range shooters do it both ways, weigh and throw, and many have tested to see if they could find an advantage. Some think that there is one, and others do not. Characterizing them as lemmings is just ignorant. At matches, shooters do the things that they have found to work the best. This does not mean that they do not experiment, or that they all do the same things. I will say one thing about throwing. Technique, equipment and what powder is being used all matter. IMO the reason that weighing charges has made some inroads into short range is that shooters came to realize that 133 was just about at the limit of what could be reliably thrown, and that if they were not very careful, that their charges would vary by amounts that could be detrimental to short range accuracy. Those who did and do shoot one of the finer grained powders...not so much. As LT32 comes into greater general use, this will be less of a factor. Long range shooters pontificating about short range, look about as silly as the other way around. I believe what they tell me about long range, about short range, not so much.
Boyd, How do you know what you are throwing ? Do you check the thrown charge? with a scale at least as accurate as a GD 503? what you keep saying it is good enough……. how do you know if it could be better……. that is all i'm saying. I use to think the way i was loading throwing powder out of a measure was great till i found out different. Including 133 and 8208 it will not do a .1,most of the time but not all. I did find that if you practice too much it will change the burning rate by cutting the powder…….. jim
adamsgt
Jerry Adams
Paul , you need to go read the thread on Charles E. I think Wilbur described you to a T: Charles was the victim of those who "know better".
Boyd Allen
Active member
I have practiced with a scale that measures to .02 and later with my tuned balance scale that is easy to read to .05 and which shows a single grain of Varget when read at a very close distance with a webcam. What years of experience have taught me is that being able to tune by loading at the range is important, and I have observed that electronic scales that weigh to very small tolerances do not like vibration, and are therefore unsuitable for use at the range to weigh every charge. I try to keep my practice consistent with the requirements of actual match shooting, and if a match is running well, with two relays, one has at most a half hour to tend to cleaning and loading between matches, so that is a factor as well. I record my loads each time that I go to the range, and I have seen repeatedly where slight adjustments from what shot well on a previous session were necessary. One more thing that relates to this is that when two shooters discuss what can be done with a measure, it is highly probable that they are using different throwing techniques. Some years back, I was prepared to buy a Chargemaster, but did not want to carry the additional equipment to the range if I could throw 133 to +- .1 gr. I thought that before I made the purchase that I would give it one more try with a measure. I had tried all sorts of variations that did not work, but my last attempt succeeded. The method is more involved than most would want to bother with, but I believe it allows my charges to be sufficiently consistent for my purposes. Technique varies for different powders and measures. What it all comes down to is that I believe that being able to adjust charges by loading at the range is more important than any advantage that might be gained from having more consistent powder charges than can practically be produced there. Like any manual skill, throwing powder well requires practice, and to see what you are doing right or wrong requires a good scale. From time to time, I check myself, so that long layoffs between trips to the range do not cause my technique to deteriorate. I also make brief notations as to measure technique along with load data. Finally, this is all a matter of spending ones time on the things that seem to make the most difference, and in my experience they are fine adjustment of tune, reading the flags, starting a record group in the best condition, managing ones time well during a match, and not being so reluctant to use the sighter target. Unless one is shooting in a rare condition, my experience is that at short range, these are all more important than holding powder charge to a tighter standard, and since I have been able to shoot some very small groups in the best conditions ( that I have never seen at a local match) with thrown charges, I do not loose much sleep worrying about charge weight variations. One advantage of living so close to the Visalia range is that I have been able to get to know, a number of world record holders, and hall of fame members, and observe how they load and shoot. They do not all do the exact same things, but there are some common elements. None of them preload. Again, this is for group shooting.
I think Boyd and I are saying the same thing but using different threads to say it. You can't measure well enough to beat a better rifle. You just can't.
That said, the guy with the better rifle might shoot a better agg if he weighed his powder. I just don't know! I do know that he doesn't have to weigh to win.
This post is valid for group benchrest shooting only. I know absolutely nothing about long range shooting....
That said, the guy with the better rifle might shoot a better agg if he weighed his powder. I just don't know! I do know that he doesn't have to weigh to win.
This post is valid for group benchrest shooting only. I know absolutely nothing about long range shooting....
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can it work?
Ive been skipping over this thread as I don't have a Harrels measure and when reading the title I thought that is what it is about. Finally decided to read it tody as it is raining here. I shoot a 6PPC with my friends(no matches) and I do it pre loaded. It didn't take long to understand being out of tune. I tried loading at the range and it all ended in frustration, I didn't have the right set up and having never seen the right setup didn't know what to do to fix it. Ive often wondered if you could preload to exacting weight charges and do all the tune changes with a barrel tuner? To me having a better load than a thrower will give would be a confidence thing, but I would love to be able to alter tune to keep up with the changing conditions. Is this possible?
Ive been skipping over this thread as I don't have a Harrels measure and when reading the title I thought that is what it is about. Finally decided to read it tody as it is raining here. I shoot a 6PPC with my friends(no matches) and I do it pre loaded. It didn't take long to understand being out of tune. I tried loading at the range and it all ended in frustration, I didn't have the right set up and having never seen the right setup didn't know what to do to fix it. Ive often wondered if you could preload to exacting weight charges and do all the tune changes with a barrel tuner? To me having a better load than a thrower will give would be a confidence thing, but I would love to be able to alter tune to keep up with the changing conditions. Is this possible?
Uthink Uknow
New member
Ebb
Why not start a new thread devoted to the tuning of pre-loaded charges?
Oh, I have it. I'll do it.
Why not start a new thread devoted to the tuning of pre-loaded charges?
Oh, I have it. I'll do it.
You are pre loading under a controlled temp and humidity with super accurate scales,check seating pressure the whole ball of wax. If you load at the range you have humidity wind dirt someday shaking the table. Then tell me why when you tune at the range you can take the same rounds home that are left over and under totally different conditions they will still shoot small? Score shooter shoot just as small as group shooters, everybody shoots groups to tune the gun. The best barrel wins most of the time, some body that can shoot in the wind wins also. A gun that tracks will get you a win also, when you need to run them. Don't be to set in your ways to try something different. Thats all………. jim
r44astro
New member
this thread is way too fun, better than election results! I'll just say again, why would you want to shoot a setup that is soooo sensitive to powder charge. I doubt that unless you shoot 100/200 with wind flags all over the range you'll never know if your gun is tuned or even what that is..
Bill aka Trout
Arcadia Florida
Bill aka Trout
Arcadia Florida
Boyd Allen
Active member
Jim,
Absolutely, I do it all the time.
Absolutely, I do it all the time.
Uthink Uknow
New member
I've heard it said there is a hair's breadth of difference between genius and madness.
How long would a race car last on the streets of New York and how would it perform as a taxi there?
How would Peyton Manning do in beach volleyball?
Can you picture Tony Boyer in a tutu?
Charlie Hood as a doctor?
Well, as I see it, a BR rifle wouldn't do well as an assault rifle. I think a BR rifle has to be a fined tuned instrument on the ragged edge of victory or disaster. The victory goes to the rifle that rides the ragged edge without going out of fine tune. One could tune down to shoot .600 all the time and never throw a flier. What is the joy in that? We need to ride that ragged edge.
How long would a race car last on the streets of New York and how would it perform as a taxi there?
How would Peyton Manning do in beach volleyball?
Can you picture Tony Boyer in a tutu?
Charlie Hood as a doctor?
Well, as I see it, a BR rifle wouldn't do well as an assault rifle. I think a BR rifle has to be a fined tuned instrument on the ragged edge of victory or disaster. The victory goes to the rifle that rides the ragged edge without going out of fine tune. One could tune down to shoot .600 all the time and never throw a flier. What is the joy in that? We need to ride that ragged edge.